The peace process, moratorium and other "Jewish things"

[Alik Bahshi]

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The peace process, moratorium and other "Jewish things"
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Known expression "Jewishthings" implying a trick, just what we needed for the situation surrounding the peace process and the Israeli moratorium on building Jewish settlements in occupied Palestine, declared Israel, due to the start of negotiations under the motto of "two states for two peoples." It isimportant to note that the initiator of the negotiations is Washington, not Israel. Young ambitious President Barack Obama's decision to finally put an endto half a century of Arab-Israeli conflict - a perennial headache for all U.S.presidents. Problem exacerbated by the fact that Obama inherited legacy fromthe near best president ever to have the former owners of the White House. InBush's no step that could mark a "plus”. <o></o
His "friend of Putin" turned to Russia for the world to return it into an empire. And the next performance of permanent war "road map" to blow up buses and raids F-16, put on American taxpayers' money, which Bush quietly watched from across the ocean,suddenly turned to American reality: the battle to the surprise of Bush'sSeptember 11 crossed the ocean, having appeared on his door step. .
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<!--[endif]--><o></o After Arab attacks on America on September11 as an ally of Israel, with a light hand on the policy amateur cowboy Bush permanent Arab-Israeli war in Afghanistan is spreading due to thefact that its territory entrenched Arab Al-Qaeda organization, whose aim is tofight against Israel and its ally America for the liberation of the Palestinian people. Bush instead of treating the disease, he began to treat her symptoms,that is not engaged in the task resolutely put an end to the Arab-Israeli conflict, and began to chase Bin Laden in Afghanistan, causing death and destruction in the country, whose people are generally far from this long-standing conflict . Then Bush sold before that started against global public opinion ofthe war in Iraq under the pretext of the presence of weapons of massdestruction, which I think has caused in describable delight in Tehran obscurantist who could not dream that America will be handed their worst enemy hanged Saddam Hussein and his country will flood the blood of religious strife.Moreover, Tehran now has every reason to take up arms, if all sides there is awar, and how it is not sad, it is reasonable and correctly determines that thecause of the fire of the military in the Middle East is Israel. The motivation of the invasion of Iraq to end the dictator and establish a democracy in Iraqis a prime example of political stupidity of Bush. With high probability we can assume that, before the last U.S. troops leave Iraq, everything, so to speak Iraqi erzats Democrats in advance will be outside the country. Democracy cannot be introduced by the bayonets of the marines, the people who do not acceptits value, it would be like to present a gift to the Jewish religion as adelicacy roasted pig.<o></o
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<!--[endif]--><o></o Thanks to U.S. support for Israel'saggressive policy of the entire Middle East region today is continuous fire,which is growing alarmingly, involving the country did not initially have anyrelation to the conflict: Afghanistan, a potential candidate - Iran and evenformer strategic partner of Israel - Turkey could become, if not a direct , theindirect participant.<o></o
In order to deflect responsibility for what happens, Israel wants to present aconflict as a war of civilizations, intentionally pointing to the religiousovertones, looking for the root of evil in Islam, which is not only wrong, but criminal, because it may reveal a Pandora's box, left inside, push the worldinto a religious war between Christianity and Islam ("International Terrorismand the interested parties»).<o></o
In order to save his country from the heavy burden of the political, economicand military problems of Middle East, Obama intends to complete the so-calledpeace process, which had long been a process, and certainly not peace, itsoutcome, namely the world or even out of the process, which is actually the most effective, because time will solve all problems, and for all.<o></o
And no brainer that Israel is not interested in a Palestinian state, becausethe inevitable loss of large parts of the disenfranchised and cheap labor inthe fields of production, in which Jews traditionally do not work. Israel isquite happy with the current situation, when America not only provides thesecurity of Israel, equipped with modern weapons and monetary donations, butalso fights for his interests by sending troops to Afghanistan and Iraq, whose people suffered severely because of Israel. As for the peace process, all it sapparentsenselessness failure Barack discuss the status of Jerusalem as the undivided capital of Israel, and the following Sharon's provocation with the ascent to the Temple Mount, in which the Arabs will see the real intentions ofIsrael, marked the beginning of the intifada. In essence, the peace process isnot for the Jews and the Arabs, and for its founders, under pressure and he started already in 1991 in Madrid, when Yitzhak Shamir literally pulled the earsto the conference. Israel's refusal to Saudi peace initiative, which is areflection of the principle of "two states for two peoples," was the cause of radicalization in the Palestinian media and the coming to power ofHamas, whose leaders see, and it is reasonable, in an endless peace processonly the continuation of the occupation and apartheid against its own people,because otherwise as reservation, conditions created by Israel in the occupied territories cannot be named.<o></o
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<!--[endif]--><o></o Of course, Obama, knowing the history of delaying the peace process, not count on the indispensable success and the factthat we can make progress in the negotiations proved futile because of Israel'srefusal to extend a moratorium on construction, I think it is not particularly upset.Before we take a major step to roll strategic cooperation with Israel, Obamagave Israel another chance to negotiate with the Arabs that Israel is onceagain rejected by manipulating the moratorium. Games with clear moratorium isto play for time by the end of Obama's tenure as president, and the failure ofthe implementation of the principle of "two states for two peoples"will affect the overall evaluation of his work and the chances of a secondterm. But Obama has a good and a very strong move, just take advantage of thisvery moratorium. The fact that it freeze its time frame reveals the trueintentions of Israel - to annex the occupied territory. Who will build a houseon land that will have to pay along with the house! Temporary moratorium on the construction of said only one thing, the futility of the peace process, in that way, and show the Palestinians. Obama not to appear schemer, is simply obliged to raze this, and he is entitled to do so, remove the American commitment tothe security of Israel, that is, to stop the supply of arms and blocking theSecurity Council resolutions condemning Israel, saying it is the temporary nature of the moratorium.<o></o
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<!--[endif]--><o></o As for the other "Jewish stuff"in the peace process, they have absolutely nothing to cost, because poverty inthe peace process and will disappear except for Israel, it is no one will beneeded. But the question is, not too late to wish to have peace with the Arabswould be for Israel ("Israel - the way to oblivion»).<o></o
As a result, Israel will be left alone to face their many challenges (economic,political, demographic, - it is unlikely that the Jews of America will leave itfor the sake of Israel) in disastrous for the country's isolation. Most ofIsrael's self-confidence as a result will be not only the inevitability of theemergence of a Palestinian state, but also the future of the Jewish state willbe threatened. Israeli moratorium on building can turn out a moratorium on theexistence of the State of Israel. Become like the master of the fate of the abandoned dog chain, in which each boy averse run stone, that's what awaits Israel in the event of failure of American guardianship so recalcitrant ally,for an ally, it is too strong a word, because America from such a union doesnot have any benefit.
<o></o Obama's attempts to solve the Arab-Israeliconflict has one single purpose - to free America from the shackles imposed upon them by the Jewish lobby, which will improve the political climate notonly in the Middle East but throughout the world, would deprive Iran and BinLaden ayatola ideological background and return America status the country'sfaithful to the principles of democracy and justice.<o></o

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<!--[endif]--><o></o"Lett he troubles of the world are connected node<o></o
Do not give in to them, fight against evil "<o></o
Nizami
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[Drummond]

Am I imagining it, or are these getting shorter ???

Congrats, Alik.

A quick reply, though. Alik, your text is clearly heavily-weighted against Israel. Would I be correct in thinking that you've no interest in posting anything which SUPPORTS Israel ?

Just a thought. Hope to see you proving me wrong on that one sometime.

But the point about Israel, Alik, is that it's a Nation State that's been historically (since the late 1940's, anyway) surrounded by enemies which greatly oppose even its right to exist ! Naturally they'll arm themselves to the teeth in the face of that opposition. Naturally they'll strive to carve out a decent existence for themselves, and they'll do so in the certain knowledge that there are all sorts of Muslim groupings out there who'll find any excuse to stop them.

The fiction of 'Palestine' comes to mind. Palestine fails to be recognisable, internationally, as a Nation State in its own right. But, try telling that to those choosing to identify themselves as 'Palestinians' !!

How big a percentage of 'Palestinians' want Israel, a legitimate Nation State, to fail ? How many have been involved in terrorist activities to further their hatreds ?

Alik, I've seen you refer to Israel's 'aggression'. But the real aggression comes from a terrorist melting-pot of groups who'll kill anyone they want to further their bloodlust against Israel.

In the face of all this, do you REALLY think America shouldn't be fully supportive of Israel, in her seemingly never-ending struggles ???

[Marcus Aurelius]

Alik's entire message appears to be that if the US would just force Israel to accepts a 2 state solution, all fighting in the Middle east would cease.

Patently ridiculous.

And yes, you were imagining his article re-posts getting shorter.

[fj1200]

In the face of all this, do you REALLY think America shouldn't be fully supportive of Israel, in her seemingly never-ending struggles ???

Why? What is our strategic interest in aiding one group over another?

[aboutime]

It appears to me. As I warned someone earlier last week. The expression: "If you give them an inch. They take a mile." Seems to be coming true.

Some people simply refuse to accept what others tell them.

So. We are all going to feel the effects of Appeasement of the Minority to Destroy the Majority.

It's not democracy when Mob Rule wins.

Finally. To those who will now reply by asking "What are you talking about?"

Nothing more needs to be said. You just answered perfectly.

[Drummond]

Alik's entire message appears to be that if the US would just force Israel to accepts a 2 state solution, all fighting in the Middle east would cease.

Patently ridiculous.

And yes, you were imagining his article re-posts getting shorter.

Agreed. The two state solution would solve nothing. Maybe a temporary peace .. MAYBE .. until the old hatreds re-emerged. Give it a month or two, and the rockets would start firing again.

Arabs throughout that region have a dream of seeing Israel driven into the sea. Concessions being viewable as weakness, they'd start imagining that their dream was inching closer to reality. If anything, in the longer term, such a 'solution' would probably INcrease enmities and killing sprees.

Oh, well .. I have a dream of my own. Easily digestible posts, instead of reams of typing. Hint ... ?

[Drummond]

Why? What is our strategic interest in aiding one group over another?

Hello, FJ. I look forward to your theatrical crossings-out .... done in the name of fair debating ....

Apart from furthering the cause of democracy in the area, and apart from supporting a Nation State capable of providing a counterweight to Muslim terrorist ambition ... well, how about the sheer DECENCY involved in supporting a much-victimised race of people ??

Or doesn't that count for anything ?

[fj1200]

Hello, FJ. I look forward to your theatrical crossings-out .... done in the name of fair debating ....

Don't get lost in the weeds with your off-topic, and false, assumptions and a fair debate will be had by all.

Apart from furthering the cause of democracy in the area, and apart from supporting a Nation State capable of providing a counterweight to Muslim terrorist ambition ... well, how about the sheer DECENCY involved in supporting a much-victimised race of people ??

Or doesn't that count for anything ?

I'm all for furthering democracies; do you include the unfortunate example of democracy that exists in the PNA? How does Israel provide a counterweight to "Muslim terrorist ambition"? What successes can we look back on that supports your view? How much more support do we need to provide to a group of people with far higher standards of living than their neighbors?

[Drummond]

Don't get lost in the weeds with your off-topic, and false, assumptions and a fair debate will be had by all.

This is worrying. I didn't know that you talked to yourself, Fj. Must be very embarrassing, being prone to that on an internationally-viewable Web venue such as this ...

I'm all for furthering democracies; do you include the unfortunate example of democracy that exists in the PNA? How does Israel provide a counterweight to "Muslim terrorist ambition"? What successes can we look back on that supports your view? How much more support do we need to provide to a group of people with far higher standards of living than their neighbors?

On the PNA, see this ...

http://www.byaaronhoward.com/index.p...ils&record=397

Studying the example of the West Bank ruled by the Palestinian National Authority (PNA), Jamal found that contrary to the Western democratic experience, civic associations in the West Bank reproduced the political context in which they existed. That is, civil society mirrored the non-democratic, polarized polity of PNA-ruled Palestine instead of creating a democratic space.

Amaney A. Jamal is Assistant Professor of Politics at Princeton University. She studied democratic attitudes in the West Bank and other parts of the Arab world with the Arab Global Barometer Project. In her new book “Barriers To Democracy”, she notes how political theorists, from Alexis de Tocqueville to Robert Putnam, advanced the idea that the rich associational American life instills democratic values, respect for the law and a high level of caring about local affairs. Thus Americans have come to believe that a strong civic community will automatically promote democracy everywhere.


In non-democratic Middle Eastern settings, however, an association’s ability to freely operate depends on its agenda and programmatic activities. If an organization has the ability to upset the status quo, the government will place restrictions on the association or disband it. By 1999, the PNA had been in power on the West Bank for six and mirrored the rest of the authoritarian Arab world. Yes, Israeli policy towards the Palestinians helped shape PNA policies. But so did massive international donor assistance. This international assistance dramatically expanded associational life in Palestine but did not translate into support for democratic institutions.

Perhaps the truth about the PNA is what you had in mind. Perhaps not. Regardless, it seems to me that Western powers such as the US would do better to focus all their energies exclusively on helping Israel. And it also seems to me that this is so very obvious that it's barely worth pointing out.

I'm surprised at your not understanding that Israel does indeed show herself to be a useful counterweight to Muslim terrorist ambition !! Are you perhaps claiming that Israel has never scored a major success against any terrorist leader ? Or, never attacked or destroyed any terrorist forces, or munitions ?

Muslim terrorist ambitions are largely centred on their wish to do enormous harm to Israel. Are you claiming that Israel has never had any success in countering them ?

I think that even the Gazans would dispute that one.

As for .. 'How much more support do we need to provide to a group of people with far higher standards of living than their neighbors?' .. I would say, give them as much as they want, or can take. And, why ever not ? Israel shares the staunchest of determination to be anti-terrorist, and she richly deserves to be supported as the worthy ally she is.

Besides, I think you're forgetting something. The difference in living standards you refer to has a lot to do with the way Muslims conduct themselves. Were they to give up terrorism, to follow a path of peace, and to become properly, provably trustworthy, how would that fail to materially benefit them ? For one thing, Israel would never have to retaliate against rocket launches made against Israeli territory, and lives would be saved ...

Still, Muslim ambition remains, and very bloodthirsty it is, too. So, they get what they earn from it.

[jafar00]

Am I imagining it, or are these getting shorter ???

Congrats, Alik.

A quick reply, though. Alik, your text is clearly heavily-weighted against Israel. Would I be correct in thinking that you've no interest in posting anything which SUPPORTS Israel ?

Just a thought. Hope to see you proving me wrong on that one sometime.

But the point about Israel, Alik, is that it's a Nation State that's been historically (since the late 1940's, anyway) surrounded by enemies which greatly oppose even its right to exist ! Naturally they'll arm themselves to the teeth in the face of that opposition. Naturally they'll strive to carve out a decent existence for themselves, and they'll do so in the certain knowledge that there are all sorts of Muslim groupings out there who'll find any excuse to stop them.

The fiction of 'Palestine' comes to mind. Palestine fails to be recognisable, internationally, as a Nation State in its own right. But, try telling that to those choosing to identify themselves as 'Palestinians' !!

How big a percentage of 'Palestinians' want Israel, a legitimate Nation State, to fail ? How many have been involved in terrorist activities to further their hatreds ?

Alik, I've seen you refer to Israel's 'aggression'. But the real aggression comes from a terrorist melting-pot of groups who'll kill anyone they want to further their bloodlust against Israel.

In the face of all this, do you REALLY think America shouldn't be fully supportive of Israel, in her seemingly never-ending struggles ???

Israel existence started with terrorism and continues to this day, only they call their group "IDF" and they have better weapons with which to attack their neighbours and those of whom they have displaced and corralled into ever smaller walled enclaves and refugee camps.

Israel is wrong and always has been wrong.

[Alik Bahshi]

Am I imagining it, or are these getting shorter ???

Congrats, Alik.

A quick reply, though. Alik, your text is clearly heavily-weighted against Israel. Would I be correct in thinking that you've no interest in posting anything which SUPPORTS Israel ?

Just a thought. Hope to see you proving me wrong on that one sometime.

But the point about Israel, Alik, is that it's a Nation State that's been historically (since the late 1940's, anyway) surrounded by enemies which greatly oppose even its right to exist ! Naturally they'll arm themselves to the teeth in the face of that opposition. Naturally they'll strive to carve out a decent existence for themselves, and they'll do so in the certain knowledge that there are all sorts of Muslim groupings out there who'll find any excuse to stop them.

The fiction of 'Palestine' comes to mind. Palestine fails to be recognisable, internationally, as a Nation State in its own right. But, try telling that to those choosing to identify themselves as 'Palestinians' !!

How big a percentage of 'Palestinians' want Israel, a legitimate Nation State, to fail ? How many have been involved in terrorist activities to further their hatreds ?

Alik, I've seen you refer to Israel's 'aggression'. But the real aggression comes from a terrorist melting-pot of groups who'll kill anyone they want to further their bloodlust against Israel.

In the face of all this, do you REALLY think America shouldn't be fully supportive of Israel, in her seemingly never-ending struggles ???

Can I ask, you against the thesis "two states for two peoples"?

Thank you.

[Voted4Reagan]

Can I ask, you against the thesis "two states for two peoples"?

Thank you.

Your turn in our ONE ON ONE DEBATE

You have 3 replies left as do I...



http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthre...eeds-to-change

[fj1200]

This is worrying. I didn't know that you talked to yourself, Fj. Must be very embarrassing, being prone to that on an internationally-viewable Web venue such as this ...

Weak sauce, try harder.

BTW, I see that you've also jumped to conclusions about my position.

On the PNA, see this ...

http://www.byaaronhoward.com/index.p...ils&record=397

Perhaps the truth about the PNA is what you had in mind. Perhaps not. Regardless, it seems to me that Western powers such as the US would do better to focus all their energies exclusively on helping Israel. And it also seems to me that this is so very obvious that it's barely worth pointing out.

I'm surprised at your not understanding that Israel does indeed show herself to be a useful counterweight to Muslim terrorist ambition !! Are you perhaps claiming that Israel has never scored a major success against any terrorist leader ? Or, never attacked or destroyed any terrorist forces, or munitions ?

Muslim terrorist ambitions are largely centred on their wish to do enormous harm to Israel. Are you claiming that Israel has never had any success in countering them ?

I think that even the Gazans would dispute that one.

As for .. 'How much more support do we need to provide to a group of people with far higher standards of living than their neighbors?' .. I would say, give them as much as they want, or can take. And, why ever not ? Israel shares the staunchest of determination to be anti-terrorist, and she richly deserves to be supported as the worthy ally she is.

Besides, I think you're forgetting something. The difference in living standards you refer to has a lot to do with the way Muslims conduct themselves. Were they to give up terrorism, to follow a path of peace, and to become properly, provably trustworthy, how would that fail to materially benefit them ? For one thing, Israel would never have to retaliate against rocket launches made against Israeli territory, and lives would be saved ...

Still, Muslim ambition remains, and very bloodthirsty it is, too. So, they get what they earn from it.

On the PNA? That's exactly why I deemed it to be an "unfortunate example." She is exactly right that democracy is not just about having the right to vote, it's about having the systems around it, a populace that understands how to use it, a Constitution of sorts to control it, etc. The point was that if we're going to support Israel to "further the cause of democracy" then perhaps we should be supporting any example of democracy and spending even more time on those that need the most help. If we're furthering democracy then we can claim success in Israel and move on.

You would do better at addressing the questions I asked rather than attempting to decipher what I am "perhaps claiming." It seems to me that you made a statement that bears proving; if they are a counterweight then they would be a counterweight to a threat to our national interests. The successes that they have had regionally are not in question, the successes that your position requires that they have had are.

"Give them as much as they want"? Why? So that they can fight your battles for you? Your logic states that we should be ever more supportive of a State that largely doesn't need it, arguably, and completely ignore those States where we might actually be able to make a difference. That isn't even remotely a sustainable path. Your logic is to exacerbate the living standards differential that causes unrest, arguably.

[Alik Bahshi]

Your turn in our ONE ON ONE DEBATE

You have 3 replies left as do I...



http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthre...eeds-to-change

I don't understand you! You are here for the manager! Why did you tell me what should I do? I'm not asking you, and you not only don't answer the question, but send me to another topic. I think it's not very polite. Do you believe that I have a conversation with you only!

[Voted4Reagan]

I don't understand you! You are here for the manager! Why did you tell me what should I do? I'm not asking you, and you not only don't answer the question, but send me to another topic. I think it's not very polite. Do you believe that I have a conversation with you only!

You're up again.... 2 more posts to finish making your case that America Needs to Change.

We're all waiting to see what you post next...

Your up Alik Bahshi

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthre...eeds-to-change