America is a joke...now

[jimnyc]

Will it take "thousands"

How about you list just FIVE people that have disappeared since the patriot act. Show me articles from their families showing that they are 100% innocent and have disappeared. I can think of only one case, and it was terror related. As for abuses, hell, we've had abuses in regular law enforcement since the beginning of law enforcement. Where exactly are all of these innocent Americans being held?

Fact is, the patriot act has brought about no more abuse than we already had. There are no signs of any abuse of ordinary every day American citizens.

But let's start with proof of 100% innocent Americans being targeted...

[revelarts]

How about you list just FIVE people that have disappeared since the patriot act. Show me articles from their families showing that they are 100% innocent and have disappeared. I can think of only one case, and it was terror related. As for abuses, hell, we've had abuses in regular law enforcement since the beginning of law enforcement. Where exactly are all of these innocent Americans being held?

Fact is, the patriot act has brought about no more abuse than we already had. There are no signs of any abuse of ordinary every day American citizens.

But let's start with proof of 100% innocent Americans being targeted...

100% innocent LOL,
disappeared... but show you where they are held... with articles from their families.
LOL

So if i show you 5 --under your conditions-- then you'll think the gov't got a problem Jim?

[jimnyc]

100% innocent LOL,
disappeared... but show you where they are held... with articles from their families.
LOL

So if i show you 5 --under your conditions-- then you'll think the gov't got a problem Jim?

You guys are stating that the government can take innocent Americans and jail them indefinitely, without charges, without anything, and be done with them. I think any mistakes made by authorities are no more or less than in other means of law enforcement. I don't think there is some major conspiracy to use the act to indefinitely jail innocent people. You think otherwise. Prove your case.

[revelarts]

You guys are stating that the government can take innocent Americans and jail them indefinitely, without charges, without anything, and be done with them. I think any mistakes made by authorities are no more or less than in other means of law enforcement. I don't think there is some major conspiracy to use the act to indefinitely jail innocent people. You think otherwise. Prove your case.

"You guys are stating that the government can take innocent Americans and jail them indefinitely, without charges, without anything, and be done with them."
That's what the laws allows at this point. As long as the innocent person is accused by authority X of "terrorism". It's not really an assumption, It's how Presidents Obama and Bush have read it. How many lawyers and Law professor understand it. Only people who don't think the gov't wants to do any harm seem to think otherwise.

"...I think any mistakes made by authorities are no more or less than in other means of law enforcement...."
Other means of Law Enforcement? what do you mean by that? Mistakes are Other means of laws enforcement?



"...there is some major conspiracy to use the act to indefinitely jail innocent people."
Who said anything about a conspiracy to jail innocent people. That not a goal. An oligarchies goal is to consolidate power and protect it's position. in our case the federal gov't and presidency is the means to BE ABLE TO fine, silence, jail or kill anyone they want whenever they feel theire positions threatened. Innocent people won't be bothered as long as they go along to get along. the Extra federal powers will even be used to get some real criminals that used legal dodges in the past. Trains ran on time in Germany, loyal innocent Germans and Soviets didn't have to worry ...much. the early days of new tyrannies are not bad for most people.



"...Prove your case."
Hmmm.. tyranny by accident of over trusting public and gov't officials over zealous to public saftey... gone overboard.
or A grand conspiracy.

Jim i can't even prove to you that GW Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Blair Intentionally Lied to the world about WMD's with the evidence of Military officers, and personnel ,CIA, DIA and NSA operatives, UN inspectors, Iraqi informants, Presidential Staff members, and gov't memos to that effect.
I'm not going to attempt to "prove" to you anything about any larger conspiracies or power grabs when you can't or won't even admit to one that's plain as the sun.

I'd be wasting your time and mine.