MoD admits campaign in Afghanistan is 'an unwinnable war'

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

UK Ministry of Defense


MoD admits campaign in Afghanistan is 'an unwinnable war' - UK Politics - UK - The Independent

Rev, the lefties and the muslims are firmly in control in Britain. One must understand why they would post or would gladly echo such garbage.
The muslims there force the dumbass government to placate them , their ideology and their relentless hatred. A SAD FACT.. --Tyr

[revelarts]

Rev, the lefties and the muslims are firmly in control in Britain. One must understand why they would post or would gladly echo such garbage.
The muslims there force the dumbass government to placate them , their ideology and their relentless hatred. A SAD FACT.. --Tyr

Tyr OK Drummond assumes that since the Left wing paper printed it wrong already , as if they wrote the report , instead of the U.K's Ministry of Defense.
I'm not sure how the Paper is to blame for the CONTENT of the report an the report is therefore dismisses it on one level because the paper is left wing. It make perfect sense to Drummond and i won't debate him on it. his mind is made up. And Huffs about the Defeatist attude in the Report but no acknowledgement of the fact that lead to the conclusion. Or how trrorism gets a victory if the U.K. leaves. the taliban has never attacked the U.K. or the U.S. except byit drug trade which certian parts of our gov'ts are for anyway.

You at least acknowledge that the Gov't wrote the paper but you want to dismiss it because you ASSUME they HAD TO write the report because of presure from muslims.

Do you have ANY specific proof that this report was written for that reason?
If not it's a far fecthed assumption it seems to me.

you and drummond may "KNOW" what's happeing in the UK's M.O.D. because you are "right" because you just know the report can't be true, but the rest of us poor souls can only go by what people who work their actual SAY, Write and other public evidence.


But the full report, itself mentions that the division of the M.O.D. produced it often tries to factually challenge the M.O.D.s status quo somewhat.
so if you want to grab a thread of a reason to reject the report outright there's one for you.

However it'd ne better if you guys said something like.
the Report is wrong because the evidence shows that Afghanistan is well on it's way to becoming a self sufficient democracy, it's economy is great, the Taliban are in retreat, the puppet gov't in Kabel is Strong and well manged and ready to transition in the next elections, and there's little corruption. The Afghan Army is a fine well oiled fight force for a democratic and free Afghanistan. or some or all of that, ANY of that is around the corner in 1 year 3 years 5 years 10 years...

But you know none of that is true.
so Drummond whines about the Independent being a liberal paper. which has ZERO to do with the fact that Afghanistan is a hot mess that no one, not even Alexander the Great, has ever been able to defeat. America and the U.K. can add it's names to the list of empires that have come fought, and left. Left SOON i hope.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Tyr OK Drummond assumes that since the Left wing paper printed it wrong already , as if they wrote the report , instead of the U.K's Ministry of Defense.
I'm not sure how the Paper is to blame for the CONTENT of the report an the report is therefore dismisses it on one level because the paper is left wing. It make perfect sense to Drummond and i won't debate him on it. his mind is made up. And Huffs about the Defeatist attude in the Report but no acknowledgement of the fact that lead to the conclusion. Or how trrorism gets a victory if the U.K. leaves. the taliban has never attacked the U.K. or the U.S. except byit drug trade which certian parts of our gov'ts are for anyway.

You at least acknowledge that the Gov't wrote the paper but you want to dismiss it because you ASSUME they HAD TO write the report because of presure from muslims.

Do you have ANY specific proof that this report was written for that reason?
If not it's a far fecthed assumption it seems to me.

you and drummond may "KNOW" what's happeing in the UK's M.O.D. because you are "right" because you just know the report can't be true, but the rest of us poor souls can only go by what people who work their actual SAY, Write and other public evidence.


But the full report, itself mentions that the division of the M.O.D. produced it often tries to factually challenge the M.O.D.s status quo somewhat.
so if you want to grab a thread of a reason to reject the report outright there's one for you.

However it'd ne better if you guys said something like.
the Report is wrong because the evidence shows that Afghanistan is well on it's way to becoming a self sufficient democracy, it's economy is great, the Taliban are in retreat, the puppet gov't in Kabel is Strong and well manged and ready to transition in the next elections, and there's little corruption. The Afghan Army is a fine well oiled fight force for a democratic and free Afghanistan. or some or all of that, ANY of that is around the corner in 1 year 3 years 5 years 10 years...

But you know none of that is true.
so Drummond whines about the Independent being a liberal paper. which has ZERO to do with the fact that Afghanistan is a hot mess that no one, not even Alexander the Great, has ever been able to defeat. America and the U.K. can add it's names to the list of empires that have come fought, and left. Left SOON i hope.

Actually Drummond has far more knowledge about Britain and its leftist/Islamic corruption in government than do I. HERE IS JUST A SMALL SAMPLE FOR YOU TO CONSIDER..-Tyr

Muslim Council of Britain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Council_of_Britain
The Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) is a self-appointed umbrella body for national, .... The MCB received £150,000 of public money from the Government for a .... a role", but emphasised: "such propaganda can only be effective because of the ...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3235/anti-semitic-iranian-propaganda-uk



British Allow Anti-Semitic Iranian Propaganda in the UK

by Lee Kaplan
August 1, 2012 at 4:45 am

Despite these convictions for "hate crimes" against Islam, the British government is apparently perfectly willing to overlook the converse: anti-Semitic attacks by Iranian front groups against Jews. The deeper question for the British government is this: If British citizens can be fined or incarcerated for expressing unsavory opinions about Islam, how come Lady Renouf and Philip Bree are not being charged with "hate crimes" as well for doing exactly the same thing against the Jewish people?

"The Heritage and Destiny Channel," on You Tube, run by Iran, currently features a : an actress and film producer named Michelle Renouf, whose real name is Michelle Mainwaring, 62, a former Australian television model, now a British citizen, and a barrister named Philip Bree, who lives in London. Both star in mock interviews by Iranian TV, and try to lend an air of rational authority in their interviews as they methodically explain that the Olympic logo being used at this week's Olympic Games in London is in fact a conspiratorial "subliminal Zion race-supremacy logo," and part of an international conspiracy conducted by the Jews. According to Lady Renouf, the zigzag design of the logo's lettering spells out the word "Zion," and refers to Jews and Israel. The video can be seen in the UK as well as on You Tube.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The British have been in the news lately for their stretched-to-the-limit political correctness concerning militant Islamists, and have even been for "hate crimes" against Islam – one British police official referred to them as a "zero tolerance policy" – the British government seems perfectly willing to overlook the converse: anti-Semitic attacks by Iranian front groups against the Jewish community.
At issue here is more than some paid Jew-haters attempting to fan the flames of anti-Semitism at the 2012 Olympics in London. In addition, the Olympics Committee also refused to allow one minute of silence as a memorial for Israelis murdered at Munich Olympics of 1972 simply for being Jews. It is not clear if no Jewish names were submitted when the British read out other names, or whether these Jewish names had been officially submitted, as requested, but were the expunged before they could publicly be read.
The deeper question for the British Government is this: If British citizens can be fined or incarcerated for expressing unsavory opinions about Islam, how come Lady Renouf and Philip Bree are not being charged with "hate crimes" as well for doing the exactly the same against the Jewish people?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

But you know none of that is true.
so Drummond whines about the Independent being a liberal paper. which has ZERO to do with the fact that Afghanistan is a hot mess that no one, not even Alexander the Great, has ever been able to defeat. America and the U.K. can add it's names to the list of empires that have come fought, and left. Left SOON i hope.

I call bullshit on that bolded above. Had we went in with all our might and blasted the country as we easily could have done in less than 3 months time the entire country would have been decimated and their defeat would have been a sealed fate.
So your view that NOBODY can defeat them is GROSSLY WRONG!
I could have if given command of our military issued orders that would have defeated them. Our military holds back too damn much! And always has ever since the victory in WW2. Any military historian worth his salt can safely vouch for that..
Come on we can (or once could have) defeated the Soviets and the Chinese combined but we could never defeat the bastards in A-stan!!!!!
Our country has not fought a war all out since WW2!!!!
And that politically induced mistake has cost us dearly both in treasure and more importantly lives lost...--Tyr

[revelarts]

I call bullshit on that bolded above. Had we went in with all our might and blasted the country as we easily could have done in less than 3 months time the entire country would have been decimated and their defeat would have been a sealed fate.
So your view that NOBODY can defeat them is GROSSLY WRONG!
I could have if given command of our military issued orders that would have defeated them. Our military holds back too damn much! And always has ever since the victory in WW2. Any military historian worth his salt can safely vouch for that..
Come on we can (or once could have) defeated the Soviets and the Chinese combined but we could never defeat the bastards in A-stan!!!!!
Our country has not fought a war all out since WW2!!!!
And that politically induced mistake has cost us dearly both in treasure and more importantly lives lost...--Tyr

Did the Soviets hold back when they fought Afghanistan?
You know as well as I that fighting a war against home grown guerrilla forces is not easy.
THat's why i say a gov't war against the People of the U.S. won't be easy even though the millitary will out gun the people as far a high powered weapon go. The French were defeated in WW2 but there was still the french resistance.

Unless you literally made Afghanistan a parking lot. Or went to every village and and cave and shot all the males over 14. Then replaced them with Americans you'd probably not have victory seems to me. Many of those people don't even know what 9-11 IS. Or why the heck the U.S. are fighting they just know that it's their home.

regarless we've been there over 10 years and we have not won. 3 generals over 200,000 troops at a time. Will a million boots on the ground win it for us?

And that still begs the question what the heck are we doing there anyway?

[taft2012]

And that still begs the question what the heck are we doing there anyway?

I'll give you another question in response.

It might be easier, and will lead to the answer to your question: If the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, why were we fighting Germans in northern Africa?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Did the Soviets hold back when they fought Afghanistan?
You know as well as I that fighting a war against home grown guerrilla forces is not easy.
THat's why i say a gov't war against the People of the U.S. won't be easy even though the millitary will out gun the people as far a high powered weapon go. The French were defeated in WW2 but there was still the french resistance.

Unless you literally made Afghanistan a parking lot. Or went to every village and and cave and shot all the males over 14. Then replaced them with Americans you'd probably not have victory seems to me. Many of those people don't even know what 9-11 IS. Or why the heck the U.S. are fighting they just know that it's their home.

regarless we've been there over 10 years and we have not won. 3 generals over 200,000 troops at a time. Will a million boots on the ground win it for us?

And that still begs the question what the heck are we doing there anyway?

My friend, like I said, we haven't fought a war all out since WW2..
I would bet my life that I could have taken charge and ordered actions that would have had complete victory there in about 3 months.
Shooting 14 year old and above included if it became a damn necessity. War is pure hell no time for niceties . Besides cite the niceties that our opposition there engages in.
Here let me help to start you off.
1. Zero..

[Drummond]

My friend, like I said, we haven't fought a war all out since WW2..
I would bet my life that I could have taken charge and ordered actions that would have had complete victory there in about 3 months.
Shooting 14 year old and above included if it became a damn necessity. War is pure hell no time for niceties . Besides cite the niceties that our opposition there engages in.
Here let me help to start you off.
1. Zero..

[Drummond]

Did the Soviets hold back when they fought Afghanistan?
You know as well as I that fighting a war against home grown guerrilla forces is not easy.
THat's why i say a gov't war against the People of the U.S. won't be easy even though the millitary will out gun the people as far a high powered weapon go. The French were defeated in WW2 but there was still the french resistance.

Unless you literally made Afghanistan a parking lot. Or went to every village and and cave and shot all the males over 14. Then replaced them with Americans you'd probably not have victory seems to me. Many of those people don't even know what 9-11 IS. Or why the heck the U.S. are fighting they just know that it's their home.

regarless we've been there over 10 years and we have not won. 3 generals over 200,000 troops at a time. Will a million boots on the ground win it for us?

And that still begs the question what the heck are we doing there anyway?

Obviosly - very obviously - you're itching to get American troops out of Afghanistan as soon as possible. You're clearly unhappy about them having any involvement with the place. Never mind the fact that Afghanistan was a Failed State, hosting Al Qaeda and all the training camps they could ever want. Never mind the fact that their hosts, the Taliban, are STILL not a defeated force. Never mind the fact that, if it isn't properly arranged to the contrary, the Taliban will gain a decisive foothold once more and AGAIN open up the likelihood of being terrorist enablers once more.

And, never mind the MIND BOGGLING STUPIDITY OF A LEFTIE PRESIDENT TELLING THOSE WHO ARE HIS SUPPOSED ENEMIES, YEARS IN ADVANCE, OF WHEN HE INTENDS TO WITHDRAW ALL HIS FORCES !!!

Why, I repeat, WHY, are Lefties so intent on making life for terrorists so EASY ? Thanks to Obama'a announcement, they know that if they last out beyond a certain time, they'll have no more 'trouble' from American forces !!

Tactically, that was (and at minimum) utterly stupid. Which means that the conditions of handover to local forces becomes far more critical to get right. By the time of withdrawal, AND by the set timetable, the 'locals' MUST be capable of keeping the Taliban firmly in check. BUT, Revelarts, what's your hope ? That they get out 'soon'.

Perhaps you want the chances of a Taliban resurgence maximised ? Or perhaps you don't care ?

Well .... I for one think it's vitally important that Afghanistan doesn't become AGAIN what it was back in 2001, a terrorist haven.

Or, perhaps .. you DON'T CARE ?

Your belief that wars undertaken in Afghanistan are 'unwinnable' because, in the past, wars have been lost ... makes no sense. Are all armies equal ? Have no advances in transport or weaponry occurred in the past century or more ?

Perhaps you've suddenly overlooked the fact that you have nukes .. or, is Afghanistan magically immune to them ? Whether or not their use should be wished for, FACTUALLY, you DO have the means to win, and to do so AT ANY TIME YOU CHOOSE.

I can tell you what today's lack of total success comes down to. It comes down to a LACK OF WILL TO DO WHAT IT TAKES TO WIN.

Indeed .... far better to wish for a swift retreat, eh ?

Sounds familiar ??

[fj1200]

More defeatism ?

The Left Speaks Again ..

You slay bro'.

Perhaps you want the chances of a Taliban resurgence maximised ? Or perhaps you don't care ?

Well .... I for one think it's vitally important that Afghanistan doesn't become AGAIN what it was back in 2001, a terrorist haven.

Prior to 9/11 we cared not a whit about the Taliban and didn't post 9/11 up until they refused to turn over OBL. So what is our winning strategy against a group we don't care about (but for AQ connections)?

[Robert A Whit]

Prior to 9/11 we cared not a whit about the Taliban and didn't post 9/11 up until they refused to turn over OBL. So what is our winning strategy against a group we don't care about (but for AQ connections)?

Were we wrong for the Clinton team to not care about the Taliban where he only turned his attention to bombing Iraq over and over and over? Maybe he should not have bombed Yugoslavia over and over for many many days. And the war against Yugoslavia was based on lies. But the media actively promoted that war.

0bama does not have a winning plan or strategy.

[fj1200]

To an extent, this defies logic. It also absolutely defies historical fact.

In case you've forgotten, the Taliban played host to Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, back at the turn of the century.

Do you purposely not read everything?

Prior to 9/11 we cared not a whit about the Taliban and didn't post 9/11 up until they refused to turn over OBL. So what is our winning strategy against a group we don't care about (but for AQ connections)?

BWe should be concerned about our national securities first and foremost; the Taliban not so much, AQ definitely.

IIRC Bush was perfectly willing to let the Taliban go on their merry way if they would only turn over OBL, et al. Does that sound like the Taliban being our enemy?

So, what would be our winning strategy?

... Or, would Lefties instead ...

Always with the Lefties with you... I know it's a crutch but come on.

[Robert A Whit]

Originally Posted by revelarts


But you know none of that is true.
so Drummond whines about the Independent being a liberal paper. which has ZERO to do with the fact that Afghanistan is a hot mess that no one, not even Alexander the Great, has ever been able to defeat. America and the U.K. can add it's names to the list of empires that have come fought, and left. Left SOON i hope.

I call bullshit on that bolded above. Had we went in with all our might and blasted the country as we easily could have done in less than 3 months time the entire country would have been decimated and their defeat would have been a sealed fate.
So your view that NOBODY can defeat them is GROSSLY WRONG!
I could have if given command of our military issued orders that would have defeated them. Our military holds back too damn much! And always has ever since the victory in WW2. Any military historian worth his salt can safely vouch for that..
Come on we can (or once could have) defeated the Soviets and the Chinese combined but we could never defeat the bastards in A-stan!!!!!
Our country has not fought a war all out since WW2!!!!
And that politically induced mistake has cost us dearly both in treasure and more importantly lives lost...--Tyr

Author Peter Green explains in his top rated book that Alexander the Great did defeat Afghanistan.

To understand the role of the USA in Afghanistan, one needs to refer to General Tommy Franks book where he explains he did not intend to invade, but intended to have a civil war and help the Northern Alliance win using Air power or bomb and missile power supplied by his forces.

But he did not invade as he did in Iraq.

Ask Franks if he defeated Saddam and I believe he would say he did. This was with an actual invasion.

I believe TYR when he says he would have kicked some butt.

[jimnyc]

so Drummond whines about the Independent being a liberal paper. which has ZERO to do with the fact that Afghanistan is a hot mess that no one, not even Alexander the Great, has ever been able to defeat. America and the U.K. can add it's names to the list of empires that have come fought, and left. Left SOON i hope.

That's because liberal weenies want to redefine war and how we fight it. If it were REALLY a war, and we didn't tie the hands of our soldiers, we could have obliterated Afghanistan. Going cave to cave is effing stupid, and what they count on to "win", that and time. If we don't "win", do you really see them "winning"? Simply because they hid for years and years? Eradicate and defeat them in days, or GTFO.

[Robert A Whit]

Originally Posted by revelarts

so Drummond whines about the Independent being a liberal paper. which has ZERO to do with the fact that Afghanistan is a hot mess that no one, not even Alexander the Great, has ever been able to defeat. America and the U.K. can add it's names to the list of empires that have come fought, and left. Left SOON i hope.

That's because liberal weenies want to redefine war and how we fight it. If it were REALLY a war, and we didn't tie the hands of our soldiers, we could have obliterated Afghanistan. Going cave to cave is effing stupid, and what they count on to "win", that and time. If we don't "win", do you really see them "winning"? Simply because they hid for years and years? Eradicate and defeat them in days, or GTFO.

They need to stop saying Alexander the Great did not defeat them. Peter Green and A.B. Bosworth both top rated historians explain that Alexander the Great did defeat that area and proceeded past Pakistan into India and due to various factors, the army turned back home with generals in charge of defeated areas.

General Franks realized the problem so he put his efforts backing the natives who fought the Taliban and Al Qaeda. Bin Laden fled and was never proven to have been in the battle areas.

Bush correctly tried to keep the war in the hands of the natives of Afghanistan.

The natives can mop up. There is no need at all for the US troops to lose lives trying to do the job of the natives living there.