Getting To The Point of Being ASHAMED for Serving in the AF...

[darin]

Well, again, I really have to disagree. Christ did not "accept" homosexuality in any shape, way or form. He knew it existed, but did not accept it. The Holy Trinity is God, and God is Christ, and Christ is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is God, and if you're truly a Christian, then you believe the word of God, and the word of God is clear. If you decide to defy the word of God on homosexuality, then you are not doing as a Christian would do. You are doing as what you see to do as a human being, making up your own mind, you are not following the Bible. God/Christ would never have signed that document. That's like saying that God didn't mean what he said in the Bible.

Christ accepted Sin as the condition. The ONLY people he vocally rebuked were the religious leaders of the day. He accepted man's fallen condition. But. But he already 'saved' us because death (which is sin) and hell are cast into oblivion (if you think of time and its relative nature that has already happened)...and anyone who was imprisoned in hell was freed after christ died and let those imprisoned out of hell. Then christ closed the gates of hell and all that. One thing that itches me - you're taking a specific act that appears NOWHERE in the bible and assuming what Christ would or wouldn't have done. If Christ would dine with "sinners" (back in the day dining with someone meant something special), he'd sign stuff.

So - the point is - Because of what we learn through scripture - the examples Christ sets, love trumps everything. Love trumps condemnation. Let me ask you this - was that Colonel loving his neighbor like he loves himself? If HE wanted or expected a signed 'thank you' for his spouse, would he want someone to avoid singing it? remember, when asked, Christ said "loving your neighbor as yourself is the greatest commandment - along with loving God. That means if you need to rank stuff, Loving our neighbors is more-important than not-committing adultery. IF we were forced to rank things.

Love wins, Tom.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Christ accepted Sin as the condition. The ONLY people he vocally rebuked were the religious leaders of the day. He accepted man's fallen condition. But. But he already 'saved' us because death (which is sin) and hell are cast into oblivion (if you think of time and its relative nature that has already happened)...and anyone who was imprisoned in hell was freed after christ died and let those imprisoned out of hell. Then christ closed the gates of hell and all that. One thing that itches me - you're taking a specific act that appears NOWHERE in the bible and assuming what Christ would or wouldn't have done. If Christ would dine with "sinners" (back in the day dining with someone meant something special), he'd sign stuff.

So - the point is - Because of what we learn through scripture - the examples Christ sets, love trumps everything. Love trumps condemnation. Let me ask you this - was that Colonel loving his neighbor like he loves himself? If HE wanted or expected a signed 'thank you' for his spouse, would he want someone to avoid singing it? remember, when asked, Christ said "loving your neighbor as yourself is the greatest commandment - along with loving God. That means if you need to rank stuff, Loving our neighbors is more-important than not-committing adultery. IF we were forced to rank things.

Love wins, Tom.

Well, there's more to it than just love when Christianity and what the Bible says is the topic...

Christ spent his time around sinners because he himself said it is the sick that need a doctor, not the well. That didn't mean he accepted sin. Christ taught us not to sin, so there is no way he could have accepted it. The Bible also clearly states that marriage is between a man and a woman. Just because Christ loves us all doesn't mean we all can ignore what he states, and God said that a man should not lay with another man as a woman, that it is an abomination and their blood shall be upon them. That doesn't sound like accepting it to me. But in that, Jesus left one commandment to follow, love our God with all our heart and soul and love they neighbor as thyself, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the word of God, and that is what the colonel was doing, following the word of God.

[darin]

Well, there's more to it than just love when Christianity and what the Bible says is the topic...

Christ spent his time around sinners because he himself said it is the sick that need a doctor, not the well. That didn't mean he accepted sin. Christ taught us not to sin, so there is no way he could have accepted it. The Bible also clearly states that marriage is between a man and a woman. Just because Christ loves us all doesn't mean we all can ignore what he states, and God said that a man should not lay with another man as a woman, that it is an abomination and their blood shall be upon them. That doesn't sound like accepting it to me. But in that, Jesus left one commandment to follow, love our God with all our heart and soul and love they neighbor as thyself, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the word of God, and that is what the colonel was doing, following the word of God.

He accepted the PEOPLE regardless of their "sin" - that's the whole point. Christ has forgiven and paid-for every single sin. From here to eternity. Its already done. "Judgment" has happened. Redemption has happened (in the future of the time stream; in God's present). I contend the colonel was not loving the "spouse" as much as he loved himself. Signing what amounts to a 'thank you' letter is not advocating a position, blessing, or otherwise condoning any relationship. It's thanking the person for their support of the Airman, who served honorably. I think the Colonel was mistaken to not-sign it - even though I believe the airman was an asshole for pushing the issue.

We can go into another thread probably to discuss theology of Love vs Falling on one's sword for Christ - which he never asked anyone to really do....

Biggest question, Tom. Do you love me?

[High_Plains_Drifter]

He accepted the PEOPLE regardless of their "sin" - that's the whole point. Christ has forgiven and paid-for every single sin. From here to eternity. Its already done. "Judgment" has happened. Redemption has happened (in the future of the time stream; in God's present). I contend the colonel was not loving the "spouse" as much as he loved himself. Signing what amounts to a 'thank you' letter is not advocating a position, blessing, or otherwise condoning any relationship. It's thanking the person for their support of the Airman, who served honorably. I think the Colonel was mistaken to not-sign it - even though I believe the airman was an asshole for pushing the issue.

We can go into another thread probably to discuss theology of Love vs Falling on one's sword for Christ - which he never asked anyone to really do....

Biggest question, Tom. Do you love me?

Well... I'll tell ya what, bro... my son, after what he describes as "nearly dying," has "found the Lord," and I have been getting into these day long, in depth discussions of the Bible with him about what it means and the reasons behind taking it to extreme levels, and to tell you the truth, I really don't enjoy them, because there's never any way to "win," because from what I see, each person has their own interpretation of the Bible and what it all means, and whether or not they believe the words in the Bible literally, without wiggle room as my son does, or the words are open to discussion because they mean different things to different people such as you apparently believe. So it's an endless discussion.

So what do I believe? I believe that ones relationship with God is personal, and every one is different. God to yourself is what you want God to be, as you determine for yourself what the Bible says and means, and I don't worry what other's say I should or shouldn't be doing, or that God/Christ would do this or that and you're right or you're wrong, that's all aggravating to me. No one alive knew Christ. All we have is what some men wrote in a book about his life, and pretty much the same about God, so I find it slightly irritating for anyone to tell me they know exactly what God or Christ would do or is thinking. They don't know any better than I do, or the next guy, because he'll purport that he knows too, and he's right, and the next guy and the next guy. Even church to church, the preachers preach different things, which brings us back to accepting homosexual marriage. I've already stated my opinion what God/Christ taught us about that, and you have stated what you believe too. I think we're very close to being on the same page by simply being put, "hate the sin, love the sinner."

(Much of what I've just said comes from my frustration of talking with my son, whom I see as becoming a zealot, a closed minded, rigid ideologue that cherry picks what he believes and listens and believes only things that support what he sees as the truth. He will dismiss everything else as a lie or a deception of something the devil is pulling, and he is taking it all to an extreme level. I just can't hang with it. I think he's going off the deep end. I've already told him he should go join the Amish.)

Now was it right for the colonel not to sign this paper, because he obviously believes homosexual marriage is an abomination as per the word of God? Well, I'm sure the choice he made was what he believed was doing the right thing. Would I have signed it? No. Would I bake a cake for a homosexual marriage party? No, I wouldn't do that either.

Do I love you? Honestly, from what I gathered about you from all the years we've all been talking on this forum or that, I think you're a good guy with a good heart, so I would say that I as far as people go, you're much more the kind of person I think I could have as a friend than a lot of others. Does that mean I love you? IDK... I'll let you decide...

[darin]

Do I love you? Honestly, from what I gathered about you from all the years we've all been talking on this forum or that, I think you're a good guy with a good heart, so I would say that I as far as people go, you're much more the kind of person I think I could have as a friend than a lot of others. Does that mean I love you? IDK... I'll let you decide...

Thanks. Christ called us, challenged us, informed us we WILL love folks. So...yeah. That's the crux of the argument for Christianity - love wins.

[Abbey Marie]

Tom, can you hang in there a little longer with your son? I think he will calm down at some point. New Christians can get very excited and push too hard.

As for the theology debate, my sincere belief and understanding can be summed up by the way Jesus handled the woman caught in adultery who was about to be stoned.

1. He taught us not to judge others' sin, because we are all sinners ourselves
2. And the part that liberal Christians always conveniently leave out- after all was done, Jesus commanded the woman to "Go and sin no more". Clearly Jesus himself expects us to repent of our sin-which by definition includes not doing it anymore.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Tom, can you hang in there a little longer with your son? I think he will calm down at some point. New Christians can get very excited and push too hard.

As for the theology debate, my sincere belief and understanding can be summed up by the way Jesus handled the woman caught in adultery who was about to be stoned.

1. He taught us not to judge others' sin, because we are all sinners ourselves
2. And the part that liberal Christians always conveniently leave out- after all was done, Jesus commanded the woman to "Go and sin no more". Clearly Jesus himself expects us to repent of our sin-which by definition includes not doing it anymore.

He's far more than just became a Christian, Abbey, he is absolutely CONSUMED with it, all day, every day, and has gotten into the fringe stuff too, like the YEC crowd, (young earth creationist), that believe the earth is only 6,000 years old and that God literally created the heavens and the earth in 6 days. They take every word in the Bible literally, period, and there is no wiggle room. I think it's way, waaaay overboard, just overkill, borderline cultist.

But we talk just about every day, and to keep the peace we try for the most part to just stay away from it, because it usually leads into a huge, uncomfortable debate.

I hope he does wake up someday and wonder, why did I go that far? Why did I believe this or that? What was I thinking... because I don't believe for one second that that level of immersion and in some cases suspending your logic brain and believing only what you cherry pick, is the only way for a Christian to get into heaven.

[darin]

Tom, can you hang in there a little longer with your son? I think he will calm down at some point. New Christians can get very excited and push too hard.

As for the theology debate, my sincere belief and understanding can be summed up by the way Jesus handled the woman caught in adultery who was about to be stoned.

1. He taught us not to judge others' sin, because we are all sinners ourselves
2. And the part that liberal Christians always conveniently leave out- after all was done, Jesus commanded the woman to "Go and sin no more". Clearly Jesus himself expects us to repent of our sin-which by definition includes not doing it anymore.

I appreciate that - but I think he's more concerned with the trouble it will cause her than anything - and it doesn't address teh fact after/at crucifixion, christ liberated those who were held-captive in hell. Means the 'sinners' who are/were/will be in hell were liberated then.

#scifi #timelinestuff