American Indians and Genocide

[Noir]

Who claimed otherwise? I simply recognize that the lack of opportunities for human capital acquisition and formal employment in the communities where most are raised, as well as an ongoing degradation of territorial rights, are all contributors to their unemployment or wage slavery.

In which case they should, you know, move.

[Agnapostate]

In which case they should, you know, move.

They, um, do. Outside of that setting, there are then labor market constraints posed by their lack of human capital, as well as the everyday problems associated with leaving behind family and community, even that's even feasible.

Silly me for ever doubting Noir; I obviously should have guessed that a Brit should have been more of a natural American Indian expert than me.

[Noir]

They, um, do. Outside of that setting, there are then labor market constraints posed by their lack of human capital, as well as the everyday problems associated with leaving behind family and community, even that's even feasible.

Silly me for ever doubting Noir; I obviously should have guessed that a Brit should have been more of a natural American Indian expert than me.

Right, so "human capital" is the problem, given I'd never heard this before I looked the term up, finding this wiki definition...

Human capital refers to the stock of competences, knowledge and personality attributes embodied in the ability to perform labor so as to produce economic value. It is the attributes gained by a worker through education and experience.

So assuming you agree with that definition you are saying that Indians are not educated or experienced enough to be economically valuable?

[Gaffer]

They, um, do. Outside of that setting, there are then labor market constraints posed by their lack of human capital, as well as the everyday problems associated with leaving behind family and community, even that's even feasible.

Silly me for ever doubting Noir; I obviously should have guessed that a Brit should have been more of a natural American Indian expert than me.

It's shame but a fact that he obviously knows more about natural American Indians than you. Of course most people posting here know more than you do. The only reason most Indians don't leave the reservation is they are use to the handouts and don't want to give up that life style. Same as the inner city blacks. It's called L A Z Y.

[Agnapostate]

Right, so "human capital" is the problem, given I'd never heard this before I looked the term up, finding this wiki definition...

Yes, I'm aware that you're not economics-oriented. No need to reiterate it.

So assuming you agree with that definition you are saying that Indians are not educated or experienced enough to be economically valuable?

In one sense (due to environmental conditioning), but schooling does not only serve the purpose of human capital acquisition. It also provides authoritarian conditioning that prepares subjects for entry into the hierarchical capitalist labor market, and besides that, credentials that are a necessary condition of labor market mobility. Let's summarize the problem. First, there's the economic conditions of reservations that we've gone over. The Original Americans: U.S. Indians puts it this way:

The B.I.A. estimates that more than three-quarters of Indian land is suitable only for grazing, the least intensive and - on a per acre basis - least profitable form of agriculture, while less than a tenth has commercially viable reserves of oil, gas, or minerals. Most Indians have acquired neither the skills nor the capital required to undertake successfully the kind of enterprise that would make the best use of their meager resources. As a result of legal entanglement, moreover, about 35% of all remaining Indian land is now more or less permanently in non-Indian hands.

This cause of Indians' status as the poorest ethnic group in the country is related to mental health risks on reservations. It is put this way by Social Epidemiology of Trauma Among 2 American Indian Reservation Populations:

Objectives. We examined the prevalence of trauma in 2 large American Indian communities in an attempt to describe demographic correlates and to compare findings with a representative sample of the US population.

Methods. We determined differences in exposure to each of 16 types of trauma among 3084 tribal members aged 15 to 57 years through structured interviews. We compared prevalence rates of trauma, by gender, across the 2 tribes and with a sample of the US general population. We used logistic regression analyses to examine the relationships of demographic correlates to trauma exposure.

Results. Lifetime exposure rates to at least 1 trauma (62.4%–67.2% among male participants, 66.2%–69.8% among female participants) fell at the upper limits of the range reported by other researchers. Unlike the US general population, female and male American Indians exhibited equivalent levels of overall trauma exposure. Members of both tribes more often witnessed traumatic events, experienced traumas to loved ones, and were victims of physical attacks than their counterparts in the overall US population.

Conclusions. American Indians live in adverse environments that place them at high risk for exposure to trauma and harmful health sequelae.

Corroboration is found in Relationships Between Poverty and Psychopathology:

Context Social causation (adversity and stress) vs social selection (downward mobility from familial liability to mental illness) are competing theories about the origins of mental illness.

Objective To test the role of social selection vs social causation of childhood psychopathology using a natural experiment.

Design Quasi-experimental, longitudinal study.

Population and Setting A representative population sample of 1420 rural children aged 9 to 13 years at intake were given annual psychiatric assessments for 8 years (1993-2000). One quarter of the sample were American Indian, and the remaining were predominantly white. Halfway through the study, a casino opening on the Indian reservation gave every American Indian an income supplement that increased annually. This increase moved 14% of study families out of poverty, while 53% remained poor, and 32% were never poor. Incomes of non-Indian families were unaffected.

Main Outcome Measures Levels of Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, psychiatric symptoms in the never-poor, persistently poor, and ex-poor children were compared for the 4 years before and after the casino opened.

Results Before the casino opened, the persistently poor and ex-poor children had more psychiatric symptoms (4.38 and 4.28, respectively) than the never-poor children (2.75), but after the opening levels among the ex-poor fell to those of the never-poor children, while levels among those who were persistently poor remained high (odds ratio, 1.50; 95% confidence interval, 1.08-2.09; and odds ratio, 0.91; 95% confidence interval, 0.77-1.07, respectively). The effect was specific to symptoms of conduct and oppositional defiant disorders. Anxiety and depression symptoms were unaffected. Similar results were found in non-Indian children whose families moved out of poverty during the same period.

Conclusions An income intervention that moved families out of poverty for reasons that cannot be ascribed to family characteristics had a major effect on some types of children's psychiatric disorders, but not on others. Results support a social causation explanation for conduct and oppositional disorder, but not for anxiety or depression.

This is the cause of the high rates of alcoholism found on reservations, perhaps the only social problem that has found its way into the likes of mass media and cultural images that people like Guffer and skurty are familiar with.

You then mentioned departure from reservations. There are multiple issues there, such as the non-economic issues of separation from family, community, and culture, and the more mundane issues of obtaining transportation, employment, and housing elsewhere. I suspect that there is some degree of race-based employment discrimination against Native Americans. While I'm not personally familiar with empirical research into employment discrimination against the "classical" U.S. Indian population, perhaps because of their general reservation residency, there is a significant newer Indian population in the U.S., particularly the Southwest, a substantial portion of the so-called "Mexican-American" population.

1. Phenotype and Life Chances among Chicanos: Data from a national Chicano survey with nearly 1,000 respondents were examined to test the hypothesis that, because of internal (intragroup) and external (intergroup) discrimination, both past and present, Mexican Americans with a European physical appearance will have higher socioeconomic status than Mexican Americans with an indigenous Native American physical appearance. (JHZ)

2. Phenotype and Schooling among Mexican Americans: "The study presented here examined the effect of phenotype (both skin color and physical features) on schooling attainment among Mexican Americans with data from the 1979 National Chicano Survey. It found that the lightest skin-toned and most European-looking quarter of the Mexican American population had about 1.5 more years of schooling than the darker and more Indian-looking majority."

3. Social class, admixture, and skin color variation in Mexican-Americans and Anglo-Americans living in San Antonio, Texas: Social class may act in different ways as a barrier to gene flow in urban populations, depending on ethnicity. We test the hypothesis that biological variation is affected by social class subdivision using skin reflectance data collected for 393 Anglo-American and 930 Mexican-American adults in the major urban population of San Antonio, Texas. Two socioeconomic groups were sampled for the Anglo-American population: a middle-income transitional group and a high-income suburban group. In addition, we sampled a third socioeconomic group for Mexican-Americans: a low income barrio. Sex and age effects on skin color are minimal. Social class has no effect on skin color variation for Anglo-Americans, whereas there is a highly significant effect on social class subdivision for Mexican-Americans. Admixture estimates were derived from skin reflectance data and show that the proportion of native American ancestry decreases as social class increases.

So, extrapolating these results to make inferences about the general non-reservation U.S. Indian population, it's likely that the same disparities and discrimination exist.

It's shame but a fact that he obviously knows more about natural American Indians than you. Of course most people posting here know more than you do. The only reason most Indians don't leave the reservation is they are use to the handouts and don't want to give up that life style. Same as the inner city blacks. It's called L A Z Y.

I'm glad you've revealed your white supremacist inclinations, Guffer. However, you'll have to explain why the social democratic capitalist countries, characterized by more expansive welfare states and interventionist policies than the U.S., are also characterized by higher employment and social mobility levels. Shouldn't those "handouts" encourage laziness? Or are you prepared to join HogWash and attribute the limited success of social democracy to its existence in Europe, among people of genetically superior stock? Please do; you'd make a fascinating sociological case study on the connection between rightism and white populism.

[Agnapostate]

You know, skurty, Guffer, Pukecan, and Pigg can thank every single post in opposition to mine if they want, no matter how weak and vacuous its content. Each instance only amuses me more, since it's an illustration of the fact that they can only express their frustrations in passive-aggressive ways, knowing that they would get their asses beat down in a direct exchange with me.

[Abbey Marie]

Aggie, your obsession with one topic, and worse, your obvious anger over it, as evidenced by your Johnny-one-note Web-life, seems to prevent you from enjoying your life.

You might consider letting go of the past, which CANNOT be changed, and making the most of the time God gives you. There is a whole beautiful world out there that can be best enjoyed when you are young and healthy. And HAPPY.

[Trigg]

Originally Posted by Noir
So assuming you agree with that definition you are saying that Indians are not educated or experienced enough to be economically valuable?

Agna,

you're actually going to defend this with a page long post. How insulting and full of shit can one person be?

They can't leave the reservation because they'll leave family, have transportation issues and they'll be away from their culture. EVERYONE who moves is leaving family, friends, and will have to look at transportation issues.

You're point about mental health risks and not leaving the reservation also makes no sense.

This cause of Indians' status as the poorest ethnic group in the country is related to mental health risks on reservations

Conclusions. American Indians live in adverse environments that place them at high risk for exposure to trauma and harmful health sequelae.

Why, if they are exposed to MORE trauma on the reservation than off, WOULD THEY CHOOSE TO STAY???

Indians are the poorest ethnic group because they CHOOSE, to stay in an area with limited employment. That is the one and only reason. It's no one else's fault that they CHOOSE not to move their families away and improve their economic situation.

[Agnapostate]

Aggie, your obsession with one topic, and worse, your obvious anger over it, as evidenced by your Johnny-one-note Web-life, seems to prevent you from enjoying your life.

You might consider letting go of the past, which CANNOT be changed, and making the most of the time God gives you. There is a whole beautiful world out there that can be best enjoyed when you are young and healthy. And HAPPY.

LOL. I spend most of my discussion time (I have scarcely any left these days), on RevLeft, learning more about anti-statism, anti-capitalism, anti-imperialism, etc. This particular colonialist issue isn't discussed by me that often. In fact, I rarely mentioned it at all prior to the last year or two. As for anger, certainly I am angry about injustices that occur. Unlike you, Crabby, I try to be for the oppressed and against the oppressor.

Agna,

you're actually going to defend this with a page long post. How insulting and full of shit can one person be?

You know, Pigg, just because you got your ass handed to you in the genocide debate (and your vote remains the same despite the fact that the American Holocaust denial posts fell flat on their faces), doesn't mean you need to participate in dragging the thread off-topic. But I'll appease you.

They can't leave the reservation because they'll leave family, have transportation issues and they'll be away from their culture. EVERYONE who moves is leaving family, friends, and will have to look at transportation issues.

And typically not cultural isolation and hostility.

You're point about mental health risks and not leaving the reservation also makes no sense.

Why, if they are exposed to MORE trauma on the reservation than off, WOULD THEY CHOOSE TO STAY???

Indians are the poorest ethnic group because they CHOOSE, to stay in an area with limited employment. That is the one and only reason. It's no one else's fault that they CHOOSE not to move their families away and improve their economic situation.

You are an idiot, Pigg. The majority of this ethnic group is subject to underprovision of human capital because of the lack of education infrastructure occasionally associated with theft of more than 97% of lands and government restrictions on the remaining < 3% and third-world poverty. So of course there will be more problems in environments where specific efforts are not made to employ tribal members, especially with the racial employment discrimination that research attests to the existence of being a factor.

[Trigg]

You know, Pigg, just because you got your ass handed to you in the genocide debate (and your vote remains the same despite the fact that the American Holocaust denial posts fell flat on their faces), doesn't mean you need to participate in dragging the thread off-topic. But I'll appease you.



And typically not cultural isolation and hostility.



You are an idiot, Pigg. The majority of this ethnic group is subject to underprovision of human capital because of the lack of education infrastructure occasionally associated with theft of more than 97% of lands and government restrictions on the remaining < 3% and third-world poverty. So of course there will be more problems in environments where specific efforts are not made to employ tribal members, especially with the racial employment discrimination that research attests to the existence of being a factor.

you're a condescending piece of shit.

You seem to have done well for yourself, you're very well educated.

Yet, you post BS about other Indians not being educated or experienced enough to be economically viable.

Are other Indians just not as good as you?

Anyone who wants to do better in this country, especially minorities, have every opportunity to do so. Families can move. Yes, they may be separated from their comfort zone, away from family, friends and culture. But, hey, that's the way things are. If you want to make life easier for your kids you do everything you can.

[SassyLady]

you're a condescending piece of shit.

You seem to have done well for yourself, you're very well educated.

Yet, you post BS about other Indians not being educated or experienced enough to be economically viable.

Are other Indians just not as good as you?

Anyone who wants to do better in this country, especially minorities, have every opportunity to do so. Families can move. Yes, they may be separated from their comfort zone, away from family, friends and culture. But, hey, that's the way things are. If you want to make life easier for your kids you do everything you can.

Standing ovation Trigg!!!

I am an example of exactly what you are referencing. At 18 I walked away from everything I knew to get out of the poverty and violence that was my world. I've never regretted it. If you look at my kids and grandkids and compare them to my nieces/nephews and grandnieces and nephews, there is a vast world of difference in their ability to function in the world. My six sibilings choose to "stay on the reservation" and were stuck in the mire and never got out, and now their children are stuck.

[Agnapostate]

you're a condescending piece of shit.

You seem to have done well for yourself, you're very well educated.

Yet, you post BS about other Indians not being educated or experienced enough to be economically viable.

Are other Indians just not as good as you?

Anyone who wants to do better in this country, especially minorities, have every opportunity to do so. Families can move. Yes, they may be separated from their comfort zone, away from family, friends and culture. But, hey, that's the way things are. If you want to make life easier for your kids you do everything you can.

You're a dumb fucking hillbilly, no matter if fellow dumb fucking hillbillies mrs****princess and Guffer rimjob you all day long. The exception proves the rule! There's a literal stockpile of literature that illustrates that the U.S. has limited social mobility in comparison with the social democratic capitalist and even slightly more leftist capitalist countries of continental Europe. There's also a lot of evidence on this group specifically, that you just ignored, like the dimwitted imbecile that you are. Continuing my extrapolation of evidence on the Indian contingency of the "Mexican-American" population, there's An American Dream Unfulfilled: The Limited Mobility of Mexican Americans:

Objective. We build on past research regarding immigrant group adaptation by examining the wages of first–, second–, and third–generation Mexican–American men and women and empirically evaluating if past theories of immigrant incorporation apply to the Mexican–American case. Methods. We use the 1989 Latino National Political Study and the 1990/1991 Panel Studies of Income Dynamics and OLS regressions to estimate the effects of generation and human capital on wages. Results. Immigrant men and women report lower wages than their second– and third–generation counterparts, but once human capital controls are added, the wage pattern becomes one of steady decline across generations for men, and stagnation or marginal decline across generations for women. Conclusions. Our results generally contest the applicability of linear assimilation hypotheses to the Mexican–American experience, while lending some credence to the selectivity and immigrant optimism hypotheses. Results also indicate the importance of developing more contextualized immigrant adaptation frameworks.

So paired with the studies that reveal that Indian admixture is positively associated with lower class status within the Mexican-American population, what does that indicate? Your "American dream" is just that: you have to be asleep to believe it!

Standing ovation Trigg!!!

I am an example of exactly what you are referencing. At 18 I walked away from everything I knew to get out of the poverty and violence that was my world.

Your stupid little anecdotes aren't even relevant in this context, since you're not even an Indian. My mother's a Mayan and has the same inaccurate belief in unrestrained social mobility based on her own rags-to-riches story from Guatemala to the U.S. (psychoanalyze that however you want). Like you, she's a victim of arrogant inflation of her own individual perceptions. You'll never see the forest as long as you belligerently insist on charting the growth of one tree and inferring that all the others must be the same.

[Pagan]

You're a dumb fucking hillbilly, no matter if fellow dumb fucking hillbillies mrs****princess and Guffer rimjob you all day long. The exception proves the rule! There's a literal stockpile of literature that illustrates that the U.S. has limited social mobility in comparison with the social democratic capitalist and even slightly more leftist capitalist countries of continental Europe. There's also a lot of evidence on this group specifically, that you just ignored, like the dimwitted imbecile that you are. Continuing my extrapolation of evidence on the Indian contingency of the "Mexican-American" population, there's An American Dream Unfulfilled: The Limited Mobility of Mexican Americans:



So paired with the studies that reveal that Indian admixture is positively associated with lower class status within the Mexican-American population, what does that indicate? Your "American dream" is just that: you have to be asleep to believe it!



Your stupid little anecdotes aren't even relevant in this context, since you're not even an Indian. My mother's a Mayan and has the same inaccurate belief in unrestrained social mobility based on her own rags-to-riches story from Guatemala to the U.S. (psychoanalyze that however you want). Like you, she's a victim of arrogant inflation of her own individual perceptions. You'll never see the forest as long as you belligerently insist on charting the growth of one tree and inferring that all the others must be the same.

[darin]

Agnapostate has been banned for one week. That word, or any variant of spelling is never cool.

You're a dumb fucking hillbilly, no matter if fellow dumb fucking hillbillies mrs****princess and Guffer rimjob you all day long. .

[Kathianne]

You're a dumb fucking hillbilly, no matter if fellow dumb fucking hillbillies mrs****princess and Guffer rimjob you all day long. The exception proves the rule! There's a literal stockpile of literature that illustrates that the U.S. has limited social mobility in comparison with the social democratic capitalist and even slightly more leftist capitalist countries of continental Europe. There's also a lot of evidence on this group specifically, that you just ignored, like the dimwitted imbecile that you are. Continuing my extrapolation of evidence on the Indian contingency of the "Mexican-American" population, there's An American Dream Unfulfilled: The Limited Mobility of Mexican Americans:



So paired with the studies that reveal that Indian admixture is positively associated with lower class status within the Mexican-American population, what does that indicate? Your "American dream" is just that: you have to be asleep to believe it!



Your stupid little anecdotes aren't even relevant in this context, since you're not even an Indian. My mother's a Mayan and has the same inaccurate belief in unrestrained social mobility based on her own rags-to-riches story from Guatemala to the U.S. (psychoanalyze that however you want). Like you, she's a victim of arrogant inflation of her own individual perceptions. You'll never see the forest as long as you belligerently insist on charting the growth of one tree and inferring that all the others must be the same.

It never seems to dawn on you that the 'anecdotes' actually speak more to what you say you wish to accomplish, than all of the excuses you make for those that fail. It's as if you wish that teems of 'your people' continue mired in depression and failure, as long as the can blame long dead Europeans.

Have they historically been mistreated? Certainly, so were my Irish ancestors, both in Ireland and in this country. However, there wasn't time to sit back and become morose, while they may have been morose, they had to get to work to eat and find housing. To this day, no one here nor in Europe has said, 'Poor thing, your ancestors got a raw deal, here's some inadequate housing and food. If you manage to get through school with the undereducated Irish teachers you insist upon, we'll get you a free ride to university.'

What's really amazing is this seems to be the formula the government came up with to replicate in the 60's for its war on poverty.