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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    If having the proper equipment available is the issue, than this conversation really is just a waste of time.

    I thought the point that Abbey was making, which has been in the news for at least a few days, longer if one pays attention to Italy and other countries running ahead of us. The point being that doctors in Italy by circumstances-as they are locked down and staying shut-are forced by sheer numbers to make choices on who gets ventilators and even beds. Over a week ago some hospitals were refusing admission to anyone over 60, regardless of how sick.

    Now we have the President getting antsy about the economy, for good reasons. However, he has even indirectly addressed the issue of the vulnerable, the cure shouldn't be worse than the problem. Dead older, weaker folks cannot be the chief concern. Younger, stronger people might get depressed and off themselves. That would be bad, very bad.

    So, prioritizing resources may well necessitate kicking an older person off the ventilator or even just send them home with some well wishes and hopes. The young who are temporarily ill, need them. Odds are much better for and with them.
    That was very well explained... thanks. My earlier opinion was somewhat related, but a minor issue comparatively.

    I guess all I could add to that is... I hope and pray we don't get to that point.
    Last edited by High_Plains_Drifter; 03-26-2020 at 06:06 PM.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abbey View Post
    Not an expert, but I think it’s what you do after touching someone that counts. If you wash your hands before touching your own face, you are probably ok. It doesn’t enter through your skin, right?
    Hmmm... good question... IDK... I hadn't thought about it. My assumption was that once you come in contact with it, you're probably going to catch it, period, because of clumsiness and whatnot, it's going to get in you, somehow. But, that may not be. I've been wrong before, and I'll be wrong again...
    Last edited by High_Plains_Drifter; 03-26-2020 at 08:47 PM.

  3. #48
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    So, for the purposes of this conversation, at which arbitrarily chosen age do we throw our parents/grandparents in the trash?
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    So, for the purposes of this conversation, at which arbitrarily chosen age do we throw our parents/grandparents in the trash?
    Older than me, lol.
    After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown

    “Unfortunately, the truth is now whatever the media say it is”
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  7. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abbey View Post
    Older than me, lol.


    I thought maybe someone had come up with a specific age as the Italians did. So we are the country that protects its weak, huh? That's all I've heard from the left as far back as I can remember. I can think of whole bunch of people more deserving of DNR orders than merely old ones.

    I seriously believe that such a decision destroys the ideals behind the United States of America.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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  9. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post


    I thought maybe someone had come up with a specific age as the Italians did. So we are the country that protects its weak, huh? That's all I've heard from the left as far back as I can remember. I can think of whole bunch of people more deserving of DNR orders than merely old ones.

    I seriously believe that such a decision destroys the ideals behind the United States of America.
    That ideal went out with Roe v Wade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FakeNewsSux View Post
    That ideal went out with Roe v Wade.
    Boy you said a mouthful there brother...

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    And so it begins ....

    People with intellectual disabilities may be denied lifesaving care under these plans as coronavirus spreads

    Advocates for people with intellectual disabilities are concerned that those with Down syndrome, cerebral palsy, autism and other such conditions will be denied access to lifesaving medical treatment as the COVID-19 outbreak spreads across the country.

    Several disability advocacy organizations filed complaints this week with the civil-rights division of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, asking the federal government to clarify provisions of the disaster preparedness plans for the states of Washington and Alabama.

    The advocates say the plans discriminate against people with intellectual disabilities by deprioritizing this group in the event of rationing of medical care — specifically, access to ventilators, which are in high demand in treating COVID-19 cases.

    More than 7 million people in the U.S. have some form of cognitive disability.

    Some state plans make clear that people with cognitive issues are a lower priority for lifesaving treatment. For instance, Alabama’s plan says that “persons with severe mental retardation, advanced dementia or severe traumatic brain injury may be poor candidates for ventilator support.”

    Another part says that “persons with severe or profound mental retardation, moderate to severe dementia, or catastrophic neurological complications such as persistent vegetative state are unlikely candidates for ventilator support.”


    Other plans include vague provisions, which advocates fear will be interpreted to the detriment of the intellectually disabled community. For instance, Arizona’s emergency preparedness plan advises medical officials to “allocate resources to patients whose need is greater or whose prognosis is more likely to result in a positive outcome with limited resources.” Between a person with cognitive difficulties and a person without them, who decides whose needs come first?
    Medical triage always forces hard decisions about who lives and dies. For instance, older people with shorter life expectancy or those with severe dementia are often deemed less deserving of scarce medical resources than younger, healthier individuals. The state plans make clear that the fate of those with intellectual disabilities is part of the wrenching debate.

    HHS officials said they are opposed to rationing care for people with any kind of disability.

    “Persons with disabilities should not be put at the end of the line for health services based on stereotypes or discrimination, especially during emergencies. Our civil-rights laws protect the equal dignity of every human being from ruthless utilitarianism,” said Roger Severino, the director of the agency’s civil-rights office.

    “What we’re seeing here is a clash between disability rights law and ruthless utilitarian logic,” said Ari Ne’eman, a visiting scholar at the Lurie Institute for Disability Policy at Brandeis University. “What this is really about at the end of the day is whether our civil-rights laws still apply in a pandemic. I think that’s a pretty core question as to who we are as a country.”

    Advocates and families of those with intellectual disabilities say their community is especially vulnerable to the disease because many of those with significant impairments live in group homes or other congregate settings.
    It can sometimes be difficult for people with intellectual disabilities to understand the pandemic and its demands, such as the need to wear masks and heightened protocols for social distancing and hand-washing. The death of Emily Wallace, a 67-year-old with Down syndrome in a group home in Georgia, was an early warning sign of the dangers facing the community, advocates say.

    Wallace was a woman of firsts. She and her husband, Richard, were the first couple with intellectual disabilities to marry in the state. They were the first to live independently in their own home in Albany, a small town in the southwestern part of the state. In mid-March, Emily was the first person with an intellectual disability in her community — and possibly one of the first in the nation — to be diagnosed with COVID-19.

    She was taken to a local hospital where she died alone.

    “Mrs. Wallace is once again the first, but this isn’t what we wanted to celebrate,” said Stacey Ramirez, state director for The Arc of Georgia, a nonprofit advocacy group that serves people with intellectual disabilities.

    Emily and Richard Wallace were married for 18 years. A 1992 story in the Albany Herald depicted their life as happily domestic, mentioning that Richard hated to vacuum, while Emily didn’t like to dust, and that she did most of the cooking while he raked the leaves. They made payments on their home and both held down jobs. After Richard, who also had Down syndrome, died in 2018 at 65, Emily moved to a group home operated by The Albany Arc.

    After a caregiver apparently brought the coronavirus into the home, Wallace fell ill. So did another resident, who was hospitalized. Emily Wallace had a do not resuscitate order, so a ventilator would not have been an issue even if care were being rationed, said DeAnna Julian, executive director of The Albany Arc.
    But as more people are getting sick, Julian said she worries that not enough testing for the virus is being done in Albany. She’s seeing individuals — both with and without intellectual disabilities — who appear to have mild symptoms of COVID-19.

    “They’re just turning them around and sending them home, they’re putting them on” antibiotics, she said. “We live here in southwest Georgia where right now, all the cars are covered in yellow pollen and everyone has some kind of seasonal allergies. … Is it just your springtime cold or is it COVID-19?”

    Julian doesn’t have masks, gloves or other safety equipment. She doesn’t have enough staff.“It’s a difficult and critical situation here,” she said. But no, Julian said, she didn’t see Wallace or the other group home resident receive treatment any different than anyone else. She said she wouldn’t stand for it. “I’d take it all the way to the top, to the governor! They have every right to be treated like human beings,” Julian said.

    With the Americans with Disabilities Act celebrating its 30th birthday this year, activists are questioning whether policymaking has come far enough in what some consider to be the final battle in the fight for civil rights.

    In a March 18 letter to Wisconsin Gov. Tony Evers, the Survival Coalition, a group of advocacy organizations, wrote, “‘Quality of life’ has long been a pretext for denying treatment, including life-sustaining treatment, to vulnerable populations, particularly people with intellectual disabilities.”

    Michael Bérubé and his wife, Janet, live in State College, Pennsylvania, with their son Jamie, who is 28 and has Down syndrome. Bérubé, a professor of literature at Pennsylvania State University and the author, most recently, of the book “Life as Jamie Knows It,” studies disability.

    He was not surprised to learn about state rationing plans that single out people with intellectual disabilities and other cognitive conditions.
    “It would be a very rare person who sees a person with Down syndrome as innately as valuable and as able to contribute to society as anybody else,” Bérubé said.

    Pennsylvania is among those states now scrambling to write up guidelines to determine who will have access to ventilators in case of medical rationing, according to media reports.

    “In two weeks, when the resources get truly stressed out, we’ll see how much of this draconian stuff goes into practice,” Bérubé said.

    This article was produced in partnership with the ProPublica Local Reporting Network, of which the Arizona Daily Star is a member. ProPublica is a nonprofit newsroom that investigates abuses of power.
    Contact reporter Amy Silverman at asilverman@tucson.com










    If the freedom of speech is taken away
    then dumb and silent we may be led,
    like sheep to the slaughter.


    George Washington (1732-1799) First President of the USA.

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  15. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by SassyLady View Post
    [FONT=-apple-system]And so it begins ....

    People with intellectual disabilities may be denied lifesaving care under these plans as coronavirus spreads




    Thank you. This was a point I meant to get around to yesterday, but kept getting sidetracked.

    The choice to add a DNR could be made by the person or family for many different reasons, none of which have to do with suicide. The choice not to have a DNR also could be for many reasons, though I see little reason to the idea that it would be made because one is unpatriotic or out to hurt the future generations.

    Nope, this has to do with euthanasia, like abortion, getting rid of the inconvenient.

    In situations like Italy has been under for weeks, it's not by choice to go to a DNR, but serious triage. There are not the beds or ventilators. What the discussions are today have to do with preventing Italy from coming here, without reaching that point.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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  17. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by FakeNewsSux View Post
    That ideal went out with Roe v Wade.
    You beat me to it. Though around half of us still maintain that ideal, thank God.
    After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown

    “Unfortunately, the truth is now whatever the media say it is”
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  19. #56
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    Far as I'm concerned... when it comes down to crunch time, it ought to be FIST COME, FIRST SERVED... or is there a better way? IDK... it's a very, VERY bad situation no matter how you look at it. SOMEONE is going to DIE because of lack of whatever... so... fair is fair... this person came in before that person, hook them up. I don't really see any other equitable thing to do. Who you are, what you are, how old you are, that is ALL, IRRELEVANT. We're all born the same, put our clothes on the same, and DIE the same.
    Last edited by High_Plains_Drifter; 03-27-2020 at 02:02 PM.

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  21. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    Thank you. This was a point I meant to get around to yesterday, but kept getting sidetracked.

    The choice to add a DNR could be made by the person or family for many different reasons, none of which have to do with suicide. The choice not to have a DNR also could be for many reasons, though I see little reason to the idea that it would be made because one is unpatriotic or out to hurt the future generations.

    Nope, this has to do with euthanasia, like abortion, getting rid of the inconvenient.

    In situations like Italy has been under for weeks, it's not by choice to go to a DNR, but serious triage. There are not the beds or ventilators. What the discussions are today have to do with preventing Italy from coming here, without reaching that point.
    I try to put myself in the scenario. I'm 68, retired, no DNR for coronavirus situation, and on a ventilator and it's a choice between me and a younger person ......... hmmm, get in line. I worked hard to enjoy my retirement years and still have a few things to do. I am patriotic, have been my whole life, but I deserve to enjoy my hard work and I don't want some nameless, faceless person or panel deciding my worth compared to others.

    However, if it were one of my family members I'd sign off in a heartbeat.

    I do have a DNR in case I'm brain dead and I'm an organ donor. Guess all these people dying from virus can't donate anything either. Sad.
    If the freedom of speech is taken away
    then dumb and silent we may be led,
    like sheep to the slaughter.


    George Washington (1732-1799) First President of the USA.

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  23. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by High_Plains_Drifter View Post
    Far as I'm concerned... when it comes down to crunch time, it ought to be FIST COME, FIRST SERVED... or is there a better way? IDK... it's a very, VERY bad situation no matter how you look at it. SOMEONE is going to DIE because of lack of whatever... so... fair is fair... this person came in before that person, hook them up. I don't really see any other equitable thing to do. Who you are, what you are, how old you are, that is ALL, IRRELEVANT. We're all born the same, put our clothes on the same, and DIE the same.
    It’s one way to go I guess. And you know whatever we do, the wealthy and the “connected” will manage to get treatment. Tale as old as time...
    After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown

    “Unfortunately, the truth is now whatever the media say it is”
    -Abbey

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  25. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by High_Plains_Drifter View Post
    Far as I'm concerned... when it comes down to crunch time, it ought to be FIST COME, FIRST SERVED... or is there a better way? IDK... it's a very, VERY bad situation no matter how you look at it. SOMEONE is going to DIE because of lack of whatever... so... fair is fair... this person came in before that person, hook them up. I don't really see any other equitable thing to do. Who you are, what you are, how old you are, that is ALL, IRRELEVANT.
    I think in a pandemic, IF the worst happens and none of the possible ideas work to 'buy time,' and the hospitals are facing the worst-choices do have to be made.

    There seems to be little question that the elderly with underlying illness do not fair well if the disease takes hold. Unlike regular pneumonia brought on by flu, these people are staying on ventilators for well beyond two weeks, which does not bode well for survival. SOOOoo, what to do if someone is very critical and 85 years old, with a debilitating underlying illness, while a 34 year old father is in critical condition and there is no ventilator available?

    Bad times, indeed. Praying that doesn't happen here.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    Quote Originally Posted by Abbey View Post
    It’s one way to go I guess. And you know whatever we do, the wealthy and the “connected” will manage to get treatment. Tale as old as time...
    That too is so true. However the problems with availability are also a possible factor. Not yet, but pretty big jump in the numbers of deaths and infections overnight.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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