This is going to hit the news in the morning.....

[retiredman]

The fear is warranted. they would love to incinerate you. Only an idiot allows his known assailants to live.

funny...I haven't heard you bragging about going down to your local mosque and slaughtering the worshippers as they came out from afternoon prayers....is that because YOU are an idiot?

[Missileman]

funny...I haven't heard you bragging about going down to your local mosque and slaughtering the worshippers as they came out from afternoon prayers....is that because YOU are an idiot?

No, it's because he's no longer strong enough to move the refrigerator away from his mother's basement door. Even if he was, he couldn't afford a portable tin foil helmet, had to settle for the basic AC model, and doesn't have an extension cord long enough to reach all the way to the mosque.

[retiredman]

you should move back missileman... the north always needs more smart guys like you...

unless, by transplanted yankee you are referring to New York Yankees, in which case, stay the hell where you are!

[Gunny]

no ...murder requires an element of premeditation. If the captor beats his captive in a vigorous interrogation, the beating is, by definition, torture.... but if the captive dies as a result of the beating, it is not "murder" per se unless it can be proven that the captor went into the interrogation with the predetermined plan to beat his captive to death. And even so.... he, by definition, would torture him to death.

There are plenty of cases - and I listed links to a very few - where American military personnel have beaten Iraqi and Afghani prisoners to death. I hope those links provided you with the knowledge you were missing Gaffer about American military personnel being court martialled for torturing prisoners.... I bet you're glad you aren't over there on active duty, or those links would be about YOU, wouldn't they? Hell.... you'd incarcerate all muslims in America for no reason other than your own fear and bigotry.

Murder does not require premeditation.

Your links are more allegations than actual proven cases. The SFGate link is a joke. The CBS link and a NYT link are duplicates of the same event. The Al Jazeera link is regurgitating Abu Ghraib.

In each case of abuse or alleged abuse, the actions of individuals acting outside the rules are being represented as condoned by the US military when clearly, mistreating prisoners is a violation of the UCMJ.

The fact is, the actions of a few criminals do not represent the actions of the US military as a whole, and in each in your links, the accused have been charged with crimes BY the US military.

I find it odd you would attempt to tarnish the reputation of the military, being a 25 year vet and all.

[retiredman]

I never said that the military as a whole had done ANYTHING wrong. I am not attempting to "tarnish the reputation of the military". The fact remains: we have beaten prisoners to death. That is torture.

And yes....murder DOES require premeditation.

[Gunny]

I never said that the military as a whole had done ANYTHING wrong. I am not attempting to "tarnish the reputation of the military". The fact remains: we have beaten prisoners to death. That is torture.

And yes....murder DOES require premeditation.

Murder does not require premeditation.

In your first sentence you state you never said the military as a whole had done anything wrong. In your second you state you are not attempting to tarnish the reputation of the military.

In your third, you use the all-encompassing "we." Rather contradictory.

By your definition of torture, twisting someone's thumb is "torture." That of course is an intellectually dishonest definition.

If I have a KaBar to the throat of an enemy combatant and I think I can save the life of even the lousiest Marine in my unit by making him talk, he's talking. You can call it whatever want.

[Gaffer]

I never said that the military as a whole had done ANYTHING wrong. I am not attempting to "tarnish the reputation of the military". The fact remains: we have beaten prisoners to death. That is torture.

And yes....murder DOES require premeditation.

Second degree murder is murder without premeditation. If you try to rob someone and kill them, even though you didn't intend too, it's still murder.

Does the WE in your above sentence indicate you took part in a torture?

Physical torture is not productive and not used. People in pain will say anything. Pschcological torture is another story.

[retiredman]

Murder does not require premeditation.

In your first sentence you state you never said the military as a whole had done anything wrong. In your second you state you are not attempting to tarnish the reputation of the military.

In your third, you use the all-encompassing "we." Rather contradictory.

By your definition of torture, twisting someone's thumb is "torture." That of course is an intellectually dishonest definition.

If I have a KaBar to the throat of an enemy combatant and I think I can save the life of even the lousiest Marine in my unit by making him talk, he's talking. You can call it whatever want.

YOu see a contradiction. I see none. I find it hard to believe that you are willing to disenfranchise American servicement who did beat prisoners to death during interrogations and not consider them Americans anymore. I think that, as bad as they are, they are still part of OUR country. Odd that you wouldn't.

There is a definition of torture. A legal definition. By any reasonable interpretation of that definition, beating and bludgeoning a prisoner in captivity during an interrogation to the point where the prisoner does indeed die from the beating falls within it.

And if you put the knife to the man's throat and threatened him with death...I think that, itself, probably fits with the UN definition of torture which is contained in a treaty signed by Ron Reagan so that makes it the law of OUR land as well..... and if you slit his throat and he died, then you most certainly would go to jail.... as other fellow marines have gone for similar offenses against Iraqi and Afghani citizens who were being held prisoner by US.

[retiredman]

and gunny...I strongly recommend you go online and read a copy of theConvention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment signed on behalf of the United States by Deputy Secretary of State John C. Whitehead on April 18, 1988, at the United Nations. You would find it most illuminating, I am sure.... see what they say about psychological torture in there.

[Gunny]

YOu see a contradiction. I see none. I find it hard to believe that you are willing to disenfranchise American servicement who did beat prisoners to death during interrogations and not consider them Americans anymore. I think that, as bad as they are, they are still part of OUR country. Odd that you wouldn't.

Dishonest interpretation. I said they are criminals committing crimes in defiance of military law. Didn't say a word about dienfranchising them as Americans. I disenfranchise them from the military because they obviously are not following the rules and regulations of the military.

There is a definition of torture. A legal definition. By any reasonable interpretation of that definition, beating and bludgeoning a prisoner in captivity during an interrogation to the point where the prisoner does indeed die from the beating falls within it.

Really. Show me where this definition is in the UCMJ. After all, I saw not one legal allegation of "torture" in any of your links.

And if you put the knife to the man's throat and threatened him with death...I think that, itself, probably fits with the UN definition of torture which is contained in a treaty signed by Ron Reagan so that makes it the law of OUR land as well..... and if you slit his throat and he died, then you most certainly would go to jail.... as other fellow marines have gone for similar offenses against Iraqi and Afghani citizens who were being held prisoner by US.

I love how politicians who've never had a shot fired at them nor seen a fellow Marine die make arbitrary, holier-than-thou rules for an action that in and of itself is the ultimate in barbarity.

I'd like to take them, and people like YOU who have never had your boots on the ground and let Y'ALL fight the wars and we'll see just how overly-moralistic you are when it's YOUR ass on the line.

[Gunny]

and gunny...I strongly recommend you go online and read a copy of theConvention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment signed on behalf of the United States by Deputy Secretary of State John C. Whitehead on April 18, 1988, at the United Nations. You would find it most illuminating, I am sure.... see what they say about psychological torture in there.

Got me confused with Gaffer again, do you?

[retiredman]

I suggested you read the UN treaty on torture...that suggestion still stands....do I have to hold your hand and feed you the text or do you know how to use a search engine.

and I have had my boots on the ground and I have been fired upon....by arabs.

please don't make assumptions about me gunny.....

[retiredman]

Got me confused with Gaffer again, do you?

that may be.... you two are kinda like frick and frack

[Gunny]

I suggested you read the UN treaty on torture...that suggestion still stands....do I have to hold your hand and feed you the text or do you know how to use a search engine.

and I have had my boots on the ground and I have been fired upon....by arabs.

please don't make assumptions about me gunny.....

I know the rules.

Wow. So WHAT Navy ground combat unit were you in?

[Gunny]

that may be.... you two are kinda like frick and frack

Why? Becasue we don't believe in just giving our country away?