Pete Hegseth tells NATO that a return to Ukraine's 2014 borders is 'unrealistic'

[Kathianne]

There are real reminders if Afghan withdrawal plans here.

One can say it was Joe who totally f that up; but the get out of Dodge strategy did come from Trump. I think he wouldn't have botched it in Biden fashion, but there wouldn't have been actual protection from taliban for those who couldn't escape.

Same now with Ukraine.

[revelarts]

First, the West is supporting this war based on Putin's dictates. F*ck him. No one can help Ukraine; meanwhile, Putin's getting arms from Iran and probably China, and has already gone through his first batch of N Korean cannon fodder and is expecting more. Screw the one-sided shit.

Second, trickling just enough to Ukraine so they die a slow, grinding death isn't helping anyone in the long run. Give him the weapons he needs to push Russia off his property. ESPECIALLY if he's going to buy them with rare Earth minerals. Bet money Trump will STILL impose limits on what Ukraine can have and how it can be used. How Trump figures he can set up shop to get those rare Earth's with Russia occupying the place beats me. But with China cornering the market, Ukraine DOES have something Trump/the US wants and needs.

Trump needs to quit playing footsie with Putin. I can see why he does, based on his mouthing off about Panama, Greenland and Gaza. He sounds a LOT like Putin.

Likewise, Zelenskiy needs to quit with this 25-to whatever age for the draft. Around here it's 18. His excuse is they don't have the weapons and whatnot to support those numbers if they did lower the draft age.

I'll go back to one of my original statements: Give them what it takes to win. They're doing to fighting and dying. It's better than sending US troops which inevitably will happen should Putin not be stopped. If for no other reason and despite Trump's shit-talk, the US cannot financially afford for Europe to fall to Russia. They spend a LOT of money here and if comes down to a war of numbers like Russia is currently fighting? We need European numbers too. We don't have them alone.

I'm not sure why you're ignoring or downplaying some harsh facts gunny.
Your Idea that if they ONLY had more weapons is flawed.
They've already had twice as many and didn't use them... but sold them off.

the Idea that they need to throw more & younger men into the fire is also flawed.
The reason they hadn't conscripted 18 year old men is because the Ukrainian population is so thin there to begin with, so they fear population collapse without enough young men 15-20 years down the line.

Plus as much as you may feel a sense of Ukrainians righteous cause to fight & the need to fight to the last man for their land and freedom. (And to stop Putin from taking over the world) the fact is Tens of thousands of young men have FLED/Deserted the country to avoid the war... or to take care of their families elsewhere.

And bottom line here is, in a war of attrition, even if every 18 - 60 year old (untrained) Ukrainian man stood to fight they'd still be out numbered more than 3 to 1. & that's If Russia was just using it's own people.
But, as you point out, they've likely put soldiers from other countries on to the field as well.
More than the number of Mercs (or faux mercs) available to Ukraine. (plus Mercs can work for Russia too.)

The war was never winnable from an objective stand point.
If Ukraine had made peace early on they would have been better off in EVERY way.
Or as Trump said, If he had been Pres, maybe the war would have never happened.
But for years the establishment State dept, politicians & "deep state" scumbags like Victoria Newland instigated crap... poking the bear... with Ukraine's weapons (including bio-weapons (for agricultural purposes-cough-)), with talks of Ukraine in NATO, with political meddling, Nazi rhetoric and abuse of Russian speaking areas by Ukraine etc.. all layered on to, AT the LEAST, give Putin EXCUSES to invade.

I think they expected Putin to cave. Which would have been the only objectively clear path to victory for Ukraine IMO.

.
...Regarding population size, Russia had approximately a 3.5:1 advantage before the war began in February 2022. Since then, the ratio has shifted noticeably in Russia’s favor. About eight million Ukrainians have fled the country, subtracting from Ukraine’s population. Roughly three million of those emigrants have gone to Russia, adding to its population. In addition, there are probably about four million other Ukrainian citizens living in the territories that Russia now controls, further shifting the population imbalance in Russia’s favor. Putting those numbers together gives Russia approximately a 5:1 advantage in population size....
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ps-2024-08-07/

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...SAAEgLpKPD_BwE

https://apnews.com/article/russia-uk...f47266c817034f

Half of Ukrainians Want Quick, Negotiated End to War
EU, U.K. favored over U.S. as negotiators
Nov 2024
https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/...d-end-war.aspx

"Half of the weapons sent to Ukraine have been SOLD."
Many to Mexican drug cartels.

Zelenski says Half of the money sent to Ukraine didn't go to the war effort.
He doesn't know where it is.

[Gunny]

I'm not sure why you're ignoring or downplaying some harsh facts gunny.
Your Idea that if they ONLY had more weapons is flawed.
They've already had twice as many and didn't use them... but sold them off.

the Idea that they need to throw more & younger men into the fire is also flawed.
The reason they hadn't conscripted 18 year old men is because the Ukrainian population is so thin there to begin with, so they fear population collapse without enough young men 15-20 years down the line.

Plus as much as you may feel a sense of Ukrainians righteous cause to fight & the need to fight to the last man for their land and freedom. (And to stop Putin from taking over the world) the fact is Tens of thousands of young men have FLED/Deserted the country to avoid the war... or to take care of their families elsewhere.

And bottom line here is, in a war of attrition, even if every 18 - 60 year old (untrained) Ukrainian man stood to fight they'd still be out numbered more than 3 to 1. & that's If Russia was just using it's own people.
But, as you point out, they've likely put soldiers from other countries on to the field as well.
More than the number of Mercs (or faux mercs) available to Ukraine. (plus Mercs can work for Russia too.)

The war was never winnable from an objective stand point.
If Ukraine had made peace early on they would have been better off in EVERY way.
Or as Trump said, If he had been Pres, maybe the war would have never happened.
But for years the establishment State dept, politicians & "deep state" scumbags like Victoria Newland instigated crap... poking the bear... with Ukraine's weapons (including bio-weapons (for agricultural purposes-cough-)), with talks of Ukraine in NATO, with political meddling, Nazi rhetoric and abuse of Russian speaking areas by Ukraine etc.. all layered on to, AT the LEAST, give Putin EXCUSES to invade.

I think they expected Putin to cave. Which would have been the only objectively clear path to victory for Ukraine IMO.

.
...Regarding population size, Russia had approximately a 3.5:1 advantage before the war began in February 2022. Since then, the ratio has shifted noticeably in Russia’s favor. About eight million Ukrainians have fled the country, subtracting from Ukraine’s population. Roughly three million of those emigrants have gone to Russia, adding to its population. In addition, there are probably about four million other Ukrainian citizens living in the territories that Russia now controls, further shifting the population imbalance in Russia’s favor. Putting those numbers together gives Russia approximately a 5:1 advantage in population size....
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ps-2024-08-07/

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...SAAEgLpKPD_BwE

https://apnews.com/article/russia-uk...f47266c817034f

Half of Ukrainians Want Quick, Negotiated End to War
EU, U.K. favored over U.S. as negotiators
Nov 2024
https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/...d-end-war.aspx

Ignoring conspiracy theories and/or misinformation/enemy propaganda/skewed arguments is not ignoring anything called "fact".

There is nothing flawed about anything I have posted beyond that ever-present "10 percent unknown" that cannot be calculated beyond lists of probabilities in which the odds increase with remote likelihood.

Simple math dictates that in a war of attrition where one has the smallest number, one must not only fight smarter, which Ukraine on the defense is already doing, but one must mobilize all available assets.

Using the excuse that the West has not provided enough arms to warrant dropping conscription age is not a good one. If the West dropped all that Ukraine could ever hope for in their laps tomorrow, they have a population between the ages of 18-25 untrained to do anything, rendering possession of the weapons pointless. Hiring first responders after a real fire starts accomplishes little to nothing. We hire them and train them so they can be first responders and react immediately. Cart - horse.

Battlefield facts reject your numbers. Russia is using mercs from Africa and the ME, as well as N Korea, and robbed its infrastructure to the point that it is also using N Koreans to replace factory workers behind the lines. Its economy is teetering on the edge of collapse.

I cannot and do not speak for the minds of Ukrainians who will or will not fight to defend their freedom and their homeland. People are people, regardless what patch of ground they stand on. For every "me" Ukrainian that will fight to the death for what I believe in, I'm sure there's a "you" Ukrainian with a laundry list of excuses why not.

Edit: if Ukraine sold off weapons it cannot use to buy weapons it can, it makes perfect sense. There is no uniformity in Ukraine's arms. They have done more by modifying old Soviet weapons while some Western weapons have proven inadequate for the current war. US/Western weapons are designed for movement combat, not static lines of attrition akin to WW I.

[Black Diamond]

Ok. I 100 percent agree with Gunny on one thing. If you're trying to defeat an enemy who has invaded your country why in the blazing hell would you not make conscription from 18 to 30? It's no wonder it's not going well. What does that say about zelensky? That he thinks the west will just bail him out?

[Gunny]

Ok. I 100 percent agree with Gunny on one thing. If you're trying to defeat an enemy who has invaded your country why in the blazing hell would you not make conscription from 18 to 30? It's no wonder it's not going well. What does that say about zelensky? That he thinks the west will just bail him out?

You got you "Murica" lenses on. We view everything through a lens of "this is how WE do it". I have no idea why Ukraine chose the age range it has. I know it has already been lowered once to 25+. It was originally higher. That they cannot equip more even if they call them up is the only reason I have seen given. It wasn't even actually a reason. It was presented as an "even if".

Maybe Ukraine's 25 years olds are too Westernized and still live in mommy's basement until 25? Age of consent in Ukraine is 16, so who knows? The Arabs and Asians will throw 12 years olds at you. There's not a World-wide consensus age dictated by arrogant Americans.

Rather moot given Trump is determined the war end and that end justifies any means no matter who gets screwed. Good thing Europeans didn't hold the same mindset when the colonial rebels committing treason against the King here were getting their asses handed to them by the Brits.

[revelarts]

FYI

[fj1200]

^Now show it as a percentage of GDP broken down by country.

[Gunny]

When you hire a Company Commander level National Guard Major and stick him in a 3-4 Star General billet you get what you pay for. This guy's more dangerous with a microphone and audience than his boss

[revelarts]

What a few Ukrainian soldiers think of Trump not supporting Ukrainian in more war.





I wonder what the lightening bolt means...
they want Gatorade too?

[Gunny]

What a few Ukrainian soldiers think of Trump not supporting Ukrainian in more war.





I wonder what the lightening bolt means...
they want Gatorade too?

More likely Russian propaganda. Have no fear. Your boy is poised to sell out Ukraine. We will eventually pay for it if he does.

[revelarts]

It was never working.

Eye Patch McCain (Dan Crenshaw) , Lindsey Graham & Tom Cotton pickin' seem to want to lose more land & more people to die in war.

[Gunny]

It was never working.

Eye Patch McCain (Dan Crenshaw) , Lindsey Graham & Tom Cotton pickin' seem to want to lose more land & more people to die in war.

And Ukraine has currently stalled Russian advances and is taking land back. Best give them only 2 bullets this time instead of 3

We're going to lose plenty of American bodies when we end up having to fight it ourselves. Last time around we had to re-take the entire continent from an island.