Hellow from Russia

[Polite Russian]

Hellow everybody. I dont know, where can I post that theme, so, if it shoud be somwhere else (not in "USA Political Discussion), may be Admin can move it to another section?


Well. I looked at some videos, and undrestood, that you, guys, dont know anything about Russia, situation here and so on. So, if you are interested about your "potential enemy", you can ask me here. I will try to answer you obоjectively. Ask about anything, you want to know.

And sorry for bad English of cource :)

[jimnyc]

Hey, welcome to DP! :salute:

And go here when you get a chance.... http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?676-Introductions

My first question:

What's your thoughts on Vlad Putin? Of course he is often demonized over here, just as I assume some US leaders are done over there. But would like to hear someone's opinion that is living in Russia!

[John V]

Me too. I rate Putin highly, but that’s only from the little I know of him; strong, a conservative and he gave the EU the boot out of the Ukraine. I’m sure there’s more to it than that. Welcome ‘Polite Russian’. Oh by the way, where in Russia are you?

[Perianne]

Welcome!

[Noir]

Welcome!
Gave the Norwegians a good run for their money last night, was somewhat hoping we could have Eurovision in Russia for next year, given it would be the campest in a generation.

[Polite Russian]

Hey, welcome to DP! :salute:

And go here when you get a chance.... http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?676-Introductions

My first question:

What's your thoughts on Vlad Putin? Of course he is often demonized over here, just as I assume some US leaders are done over there. But would like to hear someone's opinion that is living in Russia!

Thanks :)

I think that Vladimir Putin is good president. He raised our economics, rebuild our army.. But he is not perfect (my personal opinion). I really dont like his interior politics, he's position about nationalism, islam and a lot of other moments. But at that time, he is the only one person, who can rule our country. I think, that Russia need "strong hand", and Putin is that hand. In that case there a lot of his enemies here. Practically all of them are liberals and their leaders like to go in to your embassy for "consultations". :)

He is not perfect, but he is the only one, who can rule Russia.






Me too. I rate Putin highly, but that’s only from the little I know of him; strong, a conservative and he gave the EU the boot out of the Ukraine. I’m sure there’s more to it than that. Welcome ‘Polite Russian’. Oh by the way, where in Russia are you?

I live in Saint-Petersburg.

[John V]

I visited Leningrad, as it was called then, a long time ago, also stayed in the Baltic States for a while. I'm now n Mongolia, so this forum has some pretty diverse people on it.

[LongTermGuy]

Thanks :)

I think that Vladimir Putin is good president. He raised our economics, rebuild our army.. But he is not perfect (my personal opinion). I really dont like his interior politics, he's position about nationalism, islam and a lot of other moments. But at that time, he is the only one person, who can rule our country. I think, that Russia need "strong hand", and Putin is that hand. In that case there a lot of his enemies here. Practically all of them are liberals and their leaders like to go in to your embassy for "consultations". :)

He is not perfect, but he is the only one, who can rule Russia.







I live in Saint-Petersburg.

*Love the avatar...You type well and your English is very good....

[Noir]

I like the 2014 winner best. Oh my God, isn't she sweet :laugh:

True (:

Made all the sweeter by how bitter the Russian media and power elite were towards her victory. They even cut away from her on screen presentations during this years show to show wide views of the hall instead.

[Polite Russian]

*Love the avatar...You type well and your English is very good....


Thanks.
Photo - autumn 2014, on the shooting range :)

[NightTrain]

Hello, Polite Russian.

Where did you learn English, and is it common to have fellow Russians speaking English?

Also, I'm curious as to what you think of the Ukrainian crisis - do you think it was manufactured by Putin or do you think it was started by legitimate Ukrainians that wished to return their country to Russian rule?

[LongTermGuy]

Thanks.
Photo - autumn 2014, on the shooting range :)


*Very Good Comrade.....we will be watching:cool:




:)


http://i1.wp.com/therynoshorn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/vladimir-putin-olympics.jpg

[Polite Russian]

Hello, Polite Russian.

Where did you learn English, and is it common to have fellow Russians speaking English?

Also, I'm curious as to what you think of the Ukrainian crisis - do you think it was manufactured by Putin or do you think it was started by legitimate Ukrainians that wished to return their country to Russian rule?


Hellow.

Unfortunaly there are not many people here know English well. :(
I learned it at school, my parents hired tutors, and I had some practice, while traveling :)


Abot Ukrainin crisis - is is a hard and "deep" question.. I dont have enough time right now, so, if you dont mind, you will get your answser later. Or you can add me in Skype.
I can say about Crimea - it is a will of Crimea people. I was there 4 years ago, and they said, that they dont want to be in Ukrain. And, last summer, my friend was there. People are really happy, Russian flags are everywhere. So...
And I dont think, that crisis was manufatrured ONLY by Putin. Thats fault of all sides. Russia, Ukraine, and USA/EU. There are no innocents.

As I previosly said - it is complicated theme.

[tailfins]

Hellow everybody. I dont know, where can I post that theme, so, if it shoud be somwhere else (not in "USA Political Discussion), may be Admin can move it to another section?


Well. I looked at some videos, and undrestood, that you, guys, dont know anything about Russia, situation here and so on. So, if you are interested about your "potential enemy", you can ask me here. I will try to answer you obоjectively. Ask about anything, you want to know.

And sorry for bad English of cource :)

I have a good friend named Serguei who was a Sergeant in the Soviet army. I don't consider you an enemy. If you were a programmer, all I would care about is how well you use interfaces, composition and avoid code repetition.

[Polite Russian]

I have a good friend named Serguei who was a Sergeant in the Soviet army. I don't consider you an enemy. If you were a programmer, all I would care about is how well you use interfaces, composition and avoid code repetition.

Nice to know that :)
I'm not a programmer, i'm a police cadet :)

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Thanks :)

I think that Vladimir Putin is good president. He raised our economics, rebuild our army.. But he is not perfect (my personal opinion). I really dont like his interior politics, he's position about nationalism, islam and a lot of other moments. But at that time, he is the only one person, who can rule our country. I think, that Russia need "strong hand", and Putin is that hand. In that case there a lot of his enemies here. Practically all of them are liberals and their leaders like to go in to your embassy for "consultations". :)

He is not perfect, but he is the only one, who can rule Russia.







I live in Saint-Petersburg.


I really dont like his interior politics, he's position about nationalism, islam and a lot of other moments.

Exactly what do you object to about his handling of the problem that Islam presents to Russia?
Is it that it is too hard or too soft?--Tyr

[Perianne]

What's your thoughts on Vlad Putin? Of course he is often demonized over here, just as I assume some US leaders are done over there. But would like to hear someone's opinion that is living in Russia!

It is sad to say that I admire Putin more than our own President. Putin is looking out for his country; Obama is trying to destroy his.

[LongTermGuy]

Hellow.

Unfortunaly there are not many people here know English well. :(
I learned it at school, my parents hired tutors, and I had some practice, while traveling :)


Abot Ukrainin crisis - is is a hard and "deep" question.. I dont have enough time right now, so, if you dont mind, you will get your answser later. Or you can add me in Skype.
I can say about Crimea - it is a will of Crimea people. I was there 4 years ago, and they said, that they dont want to be in Ukrain. And, last summer, my friend was there. People are really happy, Russian flags are everywhere. So...
And I dont think, that crisis was manufatrured ONLY by Putin. Thats fault of all sides. Russia, Ukraine, and USA/EU. There are no innocents.

As I previosly said - it is complicated theme.


*Yes...I understand very well about "complicated"...Im from the original old Yugoslavia....

....when you have time...check this out...

`Clinton bombed the wrong people`

http://pamelageller.com/2006/05/kosovo_clinton_.html/


`WHY CLINTON BOMBED THE SERBS: An Analysis (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1514131/posts)`

​http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1514131/posts

[Polite Russian]

Exactly what do you object to about his handling of the problem that Islam presents to Russia?
Is it that it is too hard or too soft?--Tyr


He think, that Islam is not a problem.. Well, it looks like he think that way. So I think that answer is TOO soft.
But I could be wrong about that.

[LongTermGuy]

He think, that Islam is not a problem.. Well, it looks like he think that way. So I think that answer is TOO soft.
But I could be wrong about that.


`Understood friend..... Deep inside I dont feel he cares about the cancer of islam....he has his reasons for his present actions...read between the lines...

*ahhh just picked up on `your` accent above....:)

[John V]

True (:

Made all the sweeter by how bitter the Russian media and power elite were towards her victory. They even cut away from her on screen presentations during this years show to show wide views of the hall instead.

I made an error and posted on the wrong thread, but seriously Noir, you would be arrested outside the west and given psychiatric treatment for behaving like this in public. Come on, be honest, is this your idea of normality?

[NightTrain]

Hellow.

Unfortunaly there are not many people here know English well. :(
I learned it at school, my parents hired tutors, and I had some practice, while traveling :)


Abot Ukrainin crisis - is is a hard and "deep" question.. I dont have enough time right now, so, if you dont mind, you will get your answser later. Or you can add me in Skype.
I can say about Crimea - it is a will of Crimea people. I was there 4 years ago, and they said, that they dont want to be in Ukrain. And, last summer, my friend was there. People are really happy, Russian flags are everywhere. So...
And I dont think, that crisis was manufatrured ONLY by Putin. Thats fault of all sides. Russia, Ukraine, and USA/EU. There are no innocents.

As I previosly said - it is complicated theme.

No worries, answer when you have time to delve into it... it's interesting to hear from a legitimate Russian instead of news stories that may or may not be factual.

Interesting that you think there was an American involvement in the Ukrainian crisis - can you elaborate when you have time?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

He think, that Islam is not a problem.. Well, it looks like he think that way. So I think that answer is TOO soft.
But I could be wrong about that.

I am not sure that he thinks its too soft or not a problem. Isuspect great pressure from outside Russia(Global banking system) has applied great pressure to soften his response the to muslim problem..
I had expected and even hoped for him to take a much, much harder approach just as I did for China but neither one went that path.
Surely must be due to outside pressure as neither is averse to killing by volume to solve such problems..
Too bad that the one time that type of response would be best they refuse to engage in it IMHO.
For me, only reason for the soft approach has to be outside influence--only entity powerful enough to exert that is the Globalists and World Banking(Same entities)... Globalists and Islamists are allies--as of now) because they both share important common goals... --Tyr

[Noir]

I made an error and posted on the wrong thread, but seriously Noir, you would be arrested outside the west and given psychiatric treatment for behaving like this in public. Come on, be honest, is this your idea of normality?


and what you think it is right that a state arrests and forcibly 'treats' citizens that you do not consider 'normal'?

As they say 'there is no such thing in life as normal'.

[Polite Russian]

No worries, answer when you have time to delve into it... it's interesting to hear from a legitimate Russian instead of news stories that may or may not be factual.

Interesting that you think there was an American involvement in the Ukrainian crisis - can you elaborate when you have time?


Ok. About american influence. Lets start with winter 2013. Maidan. Do you think, that was there just to support people? I dont think so. All that global shit started on the Maidan. I dont think, that American politics (Nuland, for example) was there "just" to show support to "Ukraine" people. Your soldiers train Ukrain army. Your politics often come to Kiev for "consulting". And on some videos "Ukraine" soldiers speak English.


And about situation. Ukraine is not a "natural" country. Its 20 years old. It always was in Russa (Russian Empire, than USSR). And than they get independence. But Ukraine was always "sepatated" to parts. Western and Eastern. Western was a former Poland catholic territory, and eastern - always was Russian, orthdox. So in western Ukrain people talk on Ukrain language, in eastern - on Russian. But this is not only about language. Its about culture, ideals. So western Ukrainians was allways "against" Russia, while eastern supported. Eastern Ukrainians (most of them) call themself russians. That conflict is not only geopolitical.

About our part. Well. A already told you about Crimea. About our military - I dont think, that our regular troops are there. But our volunteers - yes. A lot of them. I have a fellow, that left there. And he is not a military. He even did not served in army. But he saw, whats going on. Artillery, that destroy childrengardens, schools. Tragedy in Odessa. And stories of refugees, that have been there. Damn, even I want to go there, and fight for people of Donbass. If you want to, i can post here some links. I'm sure, that your mass media dont show you whats going on in Donezk and Lugansk.

Government of Ukraine... bunch of thiefs. They say, that they "fighting against Russian agression", but they ask russia about discounts on gas! If we are in war... And their prime minister.. just begging EU and USA for money, and than dont want to pay their debts.

And of cource their "nazi" batalions. Do you know, who is Stepan Bandera? Well, western Ukrainians believe he is a hero. Open the Wikipedia and read about that "Hero".
______________

You know, I dont wach TV and trying to look at situation from both sides. There are a lot of propaganda in Russia (well, i think that in USA too ;) ), but I know people, who are there right now, and who was there, who have seen the truth. And I belive, that we need to support Donezk and Lugansk republics.
And about russian involvement.. Well. Russian history starts in Kiev. Generally we are the same people, the same folk. A LOT OF Russian people have relatives in Ukraine.
________________________

Oh, I hope that there are not many mistakes in the text..:)

Sorry if I speak "strange", or with mistakes. Its unusual to me to speak on english so much. :3
__

BTW, if you want to communicate, you can add me in skype.

[NightTrain]

Sorry if I speak "strange", or with mistakes. Its unusual to me to speak on english so much. :3
__

BTW, if you want to communicate, you can add me in skype.

You're doing fine with your English.

What kind of news do you get, and how much of it is controlled by the government? Do you get British or American news channels?

And is your internet completely uncensored?

The reason I ask is because we hear things about Russian censorship occasionally, but there's really no way of knowing unless you talk to someone in the region.

[Drummond]

Welcome!
Gave the Norwegians a good run for their money last night, was somewhat hoping we could have Eurovision in Russia for next year, given it would be the campest in a generation.

As it was, though, we achieved our usual pitiful voting tally, Noir. Not so for Russia.

It was a closely-run finish, though. And your Russian entry (at least by Eurovision standards !) was of a high quality (and the lead singer was stunning !)

But I have a question for our new Russian member, and I'd be interested in your answer.

Voting in these song contests tends to follow political associations or allegiances (turning the whole thing into a bit of a farce). For example, Greece and Cyprus habitually give high votes to each others' countries. Ditto the Nordic countries ... Norway would heavily vote for Sweden, Sweden would reciprocate, Finland would vote for Iceland, etc etc.

But notably, that same pattern amongst the former Soviet States towards favouring Russia (Latvia, Estonia, etc) wasn't as pronounced as usual, and our British commentator, Graham Norton, made a point of noting it. I ask ... in your opinion, what might account for that ?

I'm sorry to say that I have a theory you might not like.

Forgive me .. but I must be honest. I agree with the school of thought that Putin is an egotist, possibly power-drunk. His land-grab ('annexation') of Crimea following a widely-understood ILLEGAL vote, has been followed by military interference in eastern Ukraine (for which Putin refuses to admit culpability). Could it be that your former satellite-countries were expressing displeasure at Russian-fueled insurrectionist activities in Ukraine, by withholding their votes this time around ?

We fundamentally disagree on Putin, I'm afraid. I fear we're heading towards another Cold War because of his antics. The man's a world class menace.

By the way ... welcome to the forum ! I look forward to your future posts.


Sorry if I speak "strange", or with mistakes. Its unusual to me to speak on english so much. :3
__

BTW, if you want to communicate, you can add me in skype.

No worries - your posts convey their intended messages clearly. You're doing well with them.


Ok. About american influence. Lets start with winter 2013. Maidan. Do you think, that was there just to support people? I dont think so. All that global shit started on the Maidan. I dont think, that American politics (Nuland, for example) was there "just" to show support to "Ukraine" people. Your soldiers train Ukrain army. Your politics often come to Kiev for "consulting". And on some videos "Ukraine" soldiers speak English.


And about situation. Ukraine is not a "natural" country. Its 20 years old. It always was in Russa (Russian Empire, than USSR). And than they get independence. But Ukraine was always "sepatated" to parts. Western and Eastern. Western was a former Poland catholic territory, and eastern - always was Russian, orthdox. So in western Ukrain people talk on Ukrain language, in eastern - on Russian. But this is not only about language. Its about culture, ideals. So western Ukrainians was allways "against" Russia, while eastern supported. Eastern Ukrainians (most of them) call themself russians. That conflict is not only geopolitical.

About our part. Well. A already told you about Crimea. About our military - I dont think, that our regular troops are there. But our volunteers - yes. A lot of them. I have a fellow, that left there. And he is not a military. He even did not served in army. But he saw, whats going on. Artillery, that destroy childrengardens, schools. Tragedy in Odessa. And stories of refugees, that have been there. Damn, even I want to go there, and fight for people of Donbass. If you want to, i can post here some links. I'm sure, that your mass media dont show you whats going on in Donezk and Lugansk.

Government of Ukraine... bunch of thiefs. They say, that they "fighting against Russian agression", but they ask russia about discounts on gas! If we are in war... And their prime minister.. just begging EU and USA for money, and than dont want to pay their debts.

And of cource their "nazi" batalions. Do you know, who is Stepan Bandera? Well, western Ukrainians believe he is a hero. Open the Wikipedia and read about that "Hero".
______________

You know, I dont wach TV and trying to look at situation from both sides. There are a lot of propaganda in Russia (well, i think that in USA too ;) ), but I know people, who are there right now, and who was there, who have seen the truth. And I belive, that we need to support Donezk and Lugansk republics.
And about russian involvement.. Well. Russian history starts in Kiev. Generally we are the same people, the same folk. A LOT OF Russian people have relatives in Ukraine.
________________________

Oh, I hope that there are not many mistakes in the text..:)

Sorry, I only belatedly caught up with this post.

You say that Ukraine is not a 'natural' country. Well ... isn't that subject to perception, rather than the right of a country to call itself one, and to behave as one ?

There are a number of countries that by old Russian standards might not be thought of as having a right to independent identity. But then, those old Russian standards had a great deal to do with the maintenance of a Soviet Empire. Today's independent nations (Latvia, Lithuania, Georgia etc) want independent identity and I see no reason to begrudge any of them that identity. I say that the same is, and should be, true of Ukraine.

Our own media (that's British media, anyway) considers that, however loosely associated with Russia they may be, those rebel forces in the east of Ukraine ARE there, being led on, by Russia. We have reports of both Russian troops and Russian armaments in that region. And it is for this reason that Putin is being increasingly seen as a threat to world peace.

I'm posting a link to a British newspaper ... and I've deliberately chosen a Left wing one for the purpose. See this ...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/vladimir-putin-menace-cannot-ignore-5288098

In case censorship software prevents you from accessing it, this is a direct quote:-


The “menace” of Vladimir Putin will be impossible to confront if defence spending is cut, two former ministers have warned.

Labour’s Bob Ainsworth and Tory MP Sir Peter Luff have told the Mirror that Europe’s borders face a “real military threat” from war-mongering Russia.

Mr Ainsworth, a former Defence Secretary, and Sir Peter, a defence minister under David Cameron, insist defence spending should stay at 2% of GDP and say the danger is not confined to Russia, with the Argentines looking for buy fighter aircraft that could pose a risk to the Falkands.

In a joint warning to be published exclusively in Saturday's Daily Mirror, they say:

"Vladimir Putin’s aggression has put defence on the election agenda. Or it should have. Worryingly, all the major parties seem reluctant to take the hint.

"For the first time since the end of the Cold War, Europe faces a real military threat on its borders.

"Until Putin rattled his sabre, the direct threat to the UK was mainly from terrorists. His invasions of Crimea and eastern Ukraine have changed all that.

"Now we face a Russian leader who sees no real limit to his ambition. Look at his provocative flights of nuclear bombers off the coast of England.

"Putin leads the first major power since the Second World War to invade another state to gain territory. He claims to be the protector of all the Russian minorities in Central Europe.

"That means we must expect direct or, more likely, indirect attacks on Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. This, after all, is a man whose greatest regret is the end of the Soviet Union.

This gives you a taste of how these things are seen in my part of the world. Putin is seen as a serious and increasing threat to world peace.

By the way, this might also be news to Americans ... but we've had a spate of Russian aircraft flying very close to British territory recently, this reminiscent of what the USSR used to do during the Cold War years. These are seen as belligerent acts.

I'd welcome your views. And tell us, is this perception of how we see things at all understood by the ordinary Russian citizen ?

[NightTrain]

By the way, this might also be news to Americans ... but we've had a spate of Russian aircraft flying very close to British territory recently, this reminiscent of what the USSR used to do during the Cold War years. These are seen as belligerent acts.


No, we've been seeing the stories.

And we've been intercepting quite a few Russian bombers here in Alaska lately, too. I don't see it as particularly aggressive, both American and Russian airforces have played this game of intrusion and interception for decades now.

However, I did read a story a couple days ago about the Danish dropping a bunch of depth charges to try and sink an unauthorized sub that was detected sneaking around in their waters... didn't get them but that was a very aggressive response. Had to be either the Chinese or Russians, and I think the odds were heavily Russian.

[Drummond]

No, we've been seeing the stories.

And we've been intercepting quite a few Russian bombers here in Alaska lately, too. I don't see it as particularly aggressive, both American and Russian airforces have played this game of intrusion and interception for decades now.

However, I did read a story a couple days ago about the Danish dropping a bunch of depth charges to try and sink an unauthorized sub that was detected sneaking around in their waters... didn't get them but that was a very aggressive response. Had to be either the Chinese or Russians, and I think the odds were heavily Russian.

Thanks for this, NightTrain.

We've not been 'worried' about those Russian aircraft ... the attitude is that our RAF is well up to the task of meeting any patrolling challenges (or direct incursions) that come our way. All the same, their increase in incidence is seen as clear evidence of greater outright belligerence from the Russians.

The bigger picture you describe simply adds confirmation of what we think we perceive .. a ratcheting up of acts of provocation. The obvious question has to be what this tells us of the Russian mindset, and specifically what it says for Putin's capacity for future belligerent acts. Can he be trusted not to take it to levels we in the West cannot possibly tolerate ?

[Polite Russian]

You're doing fine with your English.

What kind of news do you get, and how much of it is controlled by the government? Do you get British or American news channels?

And is your internet completely uncensored?

The reason I ask is because we hear things about Russian censorship occasionally, but there's really no way of knowing unless you talk to someone in the region.



I dont get Brit and USA channels, but I get youtube :)

I already said, that I know some people, who is fighting there right now. They are all voluteers, and some of them dont like our government, so I believe them and their infotmation. They did not saw russian military. They saw a lot of locals, some former Ukrain soldiers. If our military there - even rebels dont know about them.

Cencore in our internet is only in some radical islam, nazi and that tipe of extremism websites.
We have our freedom of speech, if you are about that :)

[aboutime]

Please tell us here in America how you feel about Putin, and his threats to the freedom of speech you say you enjoy?

I am a U.S. Navy veteran of thirty years (30). We are having problems with Leadership here in the U.S.A.
And I am interested in learning how you might feel about Leadership there in Russia.

[Drummond]

I dont get Brit and USA channels, but I get youtube :)

I already said, that I know some people, who is fighting there right now. They are all voluteers, and some of them dont like our government, so I believe them and their infotmation. They did not saw russian military. They saw a lot of locals, some former Ukrain soldiers. If our military there - even rebels dont know about them.

Cencore in our internet is only in some radical islam, nazi and that tipe of extremism websites.
We have our freedom of speech, if you are about that :)

Do you get sight of Wikipedia ? Wikipedia is a form of online encyclopaedia, perpetually updated (depending on the entry ..)

This might interest you. I hope you can open the link and confirm that what's below is accurately quoted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E2%80%9315_Russian_military_intervention_in_U kraine


2014–15 Russian military intervention in Ukraine was openly acknowledged by the President of Russia Vladimir Putin in the 2015 documentary film Crimea. The Way Home where he explicitly states that he personally was involved in the annexation of Crimea. That fact was also confirmed by the Nemtsov report.

The first post-Euromaidan Russian military operation in Ukraine took place on the night 22–23 February 2014, when president Viktor Yanukovych was evacuated to Crimea by Russian helicopters. Starting with the 2014 Crimean crisis, soldiers of ambiguous affiliation began to take control of strategic positions and infrastructure within the Ukrainian territory of Crimea, which Russia then annexed. On 4 March, during his press conference, Putin denied Russian troops interfered but then admitted on 17 April that Russian troops had been active in Crimea and said this had laid the ground for the Crimean status referendum.

After the annexation of Crimea, demonstrations by pro-Russian groups in the Donbass area of Ukraine escalated into an armed conflict between the separatist forces of the self-declared Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics and the Ukrainian government. In August, Russian military vehicles crossed the border in several locations of Donetsk Oblast, massing over 40,000 army units near the Ukrainian border. Russia denied it sent military personnel and equipment leading Western and Ukrainian military officials to term Russia's involvement a 'stealth invasion' The incursion by the Russian military was seen as responsible for the defeat of Ukrainian forces in early September.

In November 2014 the Ukrainian military reported intensive movement of troops and equipment from Russia into the separatist controlled parts of eastern Ukraine. The Associated Press reported 80 unmarked military vehicles on the move in rebel-controlled areas. An OSCE Special Monitoring Mission observed convoys of heavy weapons and tanks in DPR-controlled territory without insignia. According to an independent assessment provided to The Daily Beast, there were as many as 7,000 Russian troops inside Ukraine in early November 2014, with between 40,000 and 50,000 at the country’s eastern border. OSCE monitors further observed vehicles apparently used to transport soldiers' dead bodies crossing the Russian-Ukrainian border on Ukraine on 11 November 2014.

Russian soldiers captured in Ukraine, comments made by rebel leaders such as Alexander Zakharchenko, and statements from human rights groups indicated that Russian service personnel were fighting in Ukraine. Russia has denied allegations of its involvement in eastern Ukraine.

Several members of the international community and organizations such as Amnesty International have condemned Russia for its actions in post-revolutionary Ukraine, accusing it of breaking international law and violating Ukrainian sovereignty. Many countries implemented economic sanctions against Russia or Russian individuals or companies, to which Russia responded in kind. The Kremlin has tried to systematically intimidate and silence human rights workers who have raised questions about Russian soldiers' deaths in the conflict

I think that a lot of the truth has been kept from you. I hope that the above account will be helpful.

So I have a further question.

How do ordinary Russians interpret the West's sanctions against Russia .. why do THEY think those sanctions exist ?

[Polite Russian]

Please tell us here in America how you feel about Putin, and his threats to the freedom of speech you say you enjoy?

I am a U.S. Navy veteran of thirty years (30). We are having problems with Leadership here in the U.S.A.
And I am interested in learning how you might feel about Leadership there in Russia.


Hellow.
What do you mean by "problems with leadership"?
You mean your president? Or something like more global? :)


We have all freedoms. If I want to say something, I can. damn, there was an Ukraine journalist on the Putin's conferenсe.

About Putin -look at first page please, the answer is there :)


Do you get sight of Wikipedia ? Wikipedia is a form of online encyclopaedia, perpetually updated (depending on the entry ..)

This might interest you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E2%80%9315_Russian_military_intervention_in_U kraine



I think that a lot of the truth has been kept from you. I hope that the above account will be helpful.

So I have a further question.

How do ordinary Russians interpret the West's sanctions against Russia .. why do THEY think those sanctions exist ?

yeah, I know what is Wikipedia. There are full russian section of it. :)

Btw, did you watch that film?
Yea, I know about his words. I just said, that people, who is fighting there and not russian soldiers, I mean volunteers, did not saw russian military.

about sanctions - prices is a bit higher now. Okay. But problems unite people.

[John V]

My take on the Ukraine.
The Ukraine is a basket case economically and so why would anyone want it. When it all started I looked at who was involved, the U.S. and European Union and why. There’s that old saying isn’t there; if Iraq had grown carrots it would never have been invaded. Anyway, then I saw Russian pipelines that flowed gas into Europe and it all started to make sense. Putin steps in, draws a red line and sends both packing. The west stamps its foot and replies with sanctions, NATO moves its forces close to the Russian border; Russia retaliates by sending its aircraft closer to the western borders . . . that’s where we are now.

Meanwhile the U.S. sends a warship to the South China seas in the islands dispute between China and Japan – and that’s not going down well here at all and it’s building up anti-American feeling. I’ve actually started to carry my English passport around with me. It’s a bit like the old Cuba thing – not in our backyard, but Russia and China today are very different from those of old, very nationalistic and both are able to back up their rhetoric with deeds as well as words. I’ve a feeling it won’t end well if all three start flexing their muscles.

[Drummond]

yeah, I know what is Wikipedia. There are full russian section of it. :)

Btw, did you watch that film?
Yea, I know about his words. I just said, that people, who is fighting there and not russian soldiers, I mean volunteers, did not saw russian military.

about sanctions - prices is a bit higher now. Okay. But problems unite people.

Good to know that Wikipedia is accessible in your part of the world. (No, I didn't see the film)

However ... the Wikipedia entry I quoted from disagrees with you about the presence of Russian soldiers. More, it refers to efforts by Putin to keep that truth silenced.

You haven't answered my last point. May I press you for an answer ? Why do ordinary Russians think the sanctions are being applied ?

[aboutime]

Hellow.
What do you mean by "problems with leadership"?
You mean your president? Or something like more global? :)


We have all freedoms. If I want to say something, I can. damn, there was an Ukraine journalist on the Putin's conferenсe.

About Putin -look at first page please, the answer is there :)


Yes. I looked, and read your first page. Which is what made me ask about how you feel about Putin. And as for the leadership question. Obviously...you can play the same games with semantics, and rhetoric that take place here as well.
Pretending not to understand? That sounds very familiar as well.
Defending Putin is much like those who Defend Obama. Leaving a few unanswered questions here.

[Drummond]

My take on the Ukraine.
The Ukraine is a basket case economically and so why would anyone want it. When it all started I looked at who was involved, the U.S. and European Union and why. There’s that old saying isn’t there; if Iraq had grown carrots it would never have been invaded. Anyway, then I saw Russian pipelines that flowed gas into Europe and it all started to make sense. Putin steps in, draws a red line and sends both packing. The west stamps its foot and replies with sanctions, NATO moves its forces close to the Russian border; Russia retaliates by sending its aircraft closer to the western borders . . . that’s where we are now.

Meanwhile the U.S. sends a warship to the South China seas in the islands dispute between China and Japan – and that’s not going down well here at all and it’s building up anti-American feeling. I’ve actually started to carry my English passport around with me. It’s a bit like the old Cuba thing – not in our backyard, but Russia and China today are very different from those of old, very nationalistic and both are able to back up their rhetoric with deeds as well as words. I’ve a feeling it won’t end well if all three start flexing their muscles.



My apologies, John, I'm largely ignorant of the troubles in your part of the world. I need to do some research, evidently.

As for Ukraine, and your reference to Russian gas ..

https://euobserver.com/foreign/124131


Ukraine plans to use EU and IMF money to pay for Russian gas, but will not pay a cent unless Moscow agrees a market price, its authorities say.Its caretaker PM, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, made the point at a meeting with European Commission chief Jose Manuel Barroso in Brussels on Tuesday (13 May).

He said: “We want a deal based on market conditions. If Russia rejects this, we will bring Russia to [an international arbitrage] court in Stockholm. If I’m not mistaken, there’s 20 days left - this is the final call for Russia to sit at the negotiating table.”

He noted that Russia’s ultimatum on gas debts is offset by its seizure of Ukrainian energy assets in Crimea last month, worth “tens, if not hundreds, of billions of dollars.” He listed stolen assets as: 2 billion cubic metres of gas in storage vats; two energy firms; onshore and offshore drilling facilities; and offshore gas fields.

Ukraine’s ambassador to the EU, Kostyantin Yeliseyev, told EU observer on Wednesday that no EU or International Monetary Fund (IMF) money will be used to pay Russia’s “political” gas price.

“We are not so stupid or naive as to pay this price,” he noted.

“The situation is not easy and time is running: We need to start filling our underground storage facilities so that we can ensure transit of [Russian] gas to European countries [in winter],” he added.

Russian supplier Gazprom has said it will halt deliveries to Ukraine on 2 June unless it makes a pre-payment of $1.7 billion based on a price of $485 per thousand cubic metres (tcm) - almost twice the amount charged to its EU customers.

Last year it offered Ukraine $268.5 per tcm as part of a bailout for its former leader Viktor Yanukovych.

But it cancelled the offer when he fell from power and Ukraine resumed preparations to sign a free trade pact with the EU.

For its part, the EU on Tuesday signed off a €1.6 billion macro-financial aid package to Ukraine, saying the first part, worth some €600 million, will be disbursed “soon.” The deal comes on top of an IMF bailout tranche of $3.2 billion paid out one week ago.

A commission spokesman, Simon O’Connor, noted: “It is aid for the Ukrainian budget to meet its external financing needs, which includes payments in the energy sector.”

Barroso told press alongside Yatsenyuk: “Russia, if it wants to be seen as a credible supplier cannot play political games with energy.” He added: “If Russia continues with this kind of behaviour, it will only lead to its further isolation.”

Russia continues to be seen as a belligerent in these matters.

[Polite Russian]

Do you get sight of Wikipedia ? Wikipedia is a form of online encyclopaedia, perpetually updated (depending on the entry ..)

This might interest you. I hope you can open the link and confirm that what's below is accurately quoted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E2%80%9315_Russian_military_intervention_in_U kraine



I think that a lot of the truth has been kept from you. I hope that the above account will be helpful.

So I have a further question.

How do ordinary Russians interpret the West's sanctions against Russia .. why do THEY think those sanctions exist ?


and I also can say that a lot of truth has been kept from YOU. :)
look. You give me links to the websites. But I can take information from people.
There are a lot of propaganda on both sides. We need to understand, that no one knows the "full" truth.

[Little-Acorn]

Hellow everybody. I dont know, where can I post that theme, so, if it shoud be somwhere else (not in "USA Political Discussion), may be Admin can move it to another section?


Well. I looked at some videos, and undrestood, that you, guys, dont know anything about Russia, situation here and so on. So, if you are interested about your "potential enemy", you can ask me here. I will try to answer you obоjectively. Ask about anything, you want to know.

And sorry for bad English of cource :)
Welcome.

I regard Russia as a potential friend.

But I do hope they will stop invading other countries, and will give back what they have taken and leave those countries.

[Polite Russian]

Yes. I looked, and read your first page. Which is what made me ask about how you feel about Putin. And as for the leadership question. Obviously...you can play the same games with semantics, and rhetoric that take place here as well.
Pretending not to understand? That sounds very familiar as well.
Defending Putin is much like those who Defend Obama. Leaving a few unanswered questions here.


I dont defend Putin.
My opinion abut him - the only one man, who can rule my country right now. But he is not perfect. Really. But I can't say that he is bad president. He is strong leader.

What games and rhetoric ade you talking about? I really don't understand :(

[John V]

Welcome.

I regard Russia as a potential friend.

But I do hope they will stop invading other countries, and will give back what they have taken and leave those countries.

Oh, come on Little-Acorn, the west in general is hardly in a position to moralise about regime changes, invasions or Arab springs. :)

[Polite Russian]

Ok, guys, it is late now (02:00 pm). I will answer tomorrow. Good luck :)

[John V]

I’m in that part of the world that’s divided between western and Asian influences. I listen to their side of it and often it’s as nationalistic as the west and it shares the same similarities of government indoctrination. Yet it gives a new perspective, not just the western one. Many still use the old ‘USSR’ title for Russia – look out, the commies are coming to get us, or see China as a backwater, where the population run around waving little red books. The west demonise the East and the East demonise the west – it’s what politicians do.
Really, everywhere you go people are generally friendly, inquisitive and no person ever started a war, it’s governments that start them and people who listen to them and believe what they’re told that fight them.

[Drummond]

Ok, guys, it is late now (02:00 pm). I will answer tomorrow. Good luck :)

Yes, it's getting pretty late for me as well. You're near to my own timezone, of course.

When you return, I'll look forward to your reply about the way Russians interpret the sanctions applied to your country.

Regarding the extent of knowledge each possesses: I'm perfectly willing to accept that neither 'side' knows the full truth of the matters we've discussed. But really, I do believe that we in the West have a more complete picture than you've been permitted to know.

The West has a culture of freedom of information. Granted, that may be subject to security concerns. Or, some degree of 'spin' from a political faction preferring a particular viewpoint to be believed in. But the culture of democracy in the West is such that it isn't tolerant of State-driven secrecy .. whereas, certainly in the Soviet era, yours WAS.

Putin is ex-KGB. Why wouldn't he retain the psychology of a KGB official ? And if - as we're told - he misses the strength of the old Soviet Union, and its empire-building, then our understanding of the Ukrainian situation makes complete sense.

Can I also suggest that there's a difference between 'strength' and 'belligerence' ? A belligerent could be someone trying to mask a fundamental insecurity. Or instability. Putin's belligerence, I think rightly so, is causing the West some concern as to his, and Russia's, future global intentions.


I’m in that part of the world that’s divided between western and Asian influences. I listen to their side of it and often it’s as nationalistic as the west and it shares the same similarities of government indoctrination. Yet it gives a new perspective, not just the western one. Many still use the old ‘USSR’ title for Russia – look out, the commies are coming to get us, or see China as a backwater, where the population run around waving little red books. The west demonise the East and the East demonise the west – it’s what politicians do.
Really, everywhere you go people are generally friendly, inquisitive and no person ever started a war, it’s governments that start them and people who listen to them and believe what they’re told that fight them.



I did think we'd have areas of disagreement, John.

I actually agree with much of the above. But you said 'no person ever started a war' ... and Hitler immediately sprang to mind, as one person who did.

Putin may be leader of a 'free' Russia, but still, he's ex-KGB. And in the Wikipedia entry I quoted from before, it said there'd been independent verification of Russian troops in Ukraine, along with accounts of Russian efforts to suppress the release of that information. Sounds like old-style Soviet methods to me ...

I believe Putin to be a threat to world peace, unless he starts backtracking on his present course.

[aboutime]

I did think we'd have areas of disagreement, John.

I actually agree with much of the above. But you said 'no person ever started a war' ... and Hitler immediately sprang to mind, as one person who did.

Putin may be leader of a 'free' Russia, but still, he's ex-KGB. And in the Wikipedia entry I quoted from before, it said there'd been independent verification of Russian troops in Ukraine, along with accounts of Russian efforts to suppress the release of that information. Sounds like old-style Soviet methods to me ...

I believe Putin to be a threat to world peace, unless he starts backtracking on his present course.


Sir Drummond. As I hope you recognized. I asked our member from Russia my question in a specific way for a reason.
You, and others may have also noticed how I NO LONGER waste time welcoming new members here in the Introduction thread.
I have been burned for my Unwelcome responses for exactly the reasons I asked our new Russian member those questions.
So. Since I distrust "Greeks bearing Gifts"...so to speak. I am weary of trying to play the hypocrisy role here just to be accepted, as I pretend to seem interested in such people.
On Monday. We observe....Not Celebrate...our Memorial Day here in the colonies. So I am doubtful of those GREEKS. If you get my drift.
I agree with you. But must add that OBAMA, like PUTIN, is also a threat to World Peace.

[John V]

I did think we'd have areas of disagreement, John.

I actually agree with much of the above. But you said 'no person ever started a war' ... and Hitler immediately sprang to mind, as one person who did.

Putin may be leader of a 'free' Russia, but still, he's ex-KGB. And in the Wikipedia entry I quoted from before, it said there'd been independent verification of Russian troops in Ukraine, along with accounts of Russian efforts to suppress the release of that information. Sounds like old-style Soviet methods to me ...

I believe Putin to be a threat to world peace, unless he starts backtracking on his present course.

What I meant was people, not politicians. Of course a person has to start a war, but it’s not the people in the street. My point is that hate and demonization aren’t natural instincts. You would probably find it hard to kill someone’s father or brother, but what if you’re told they’re evil, subhuman, dangerous commies, they’re going to come over and rape your family, geeks, spicks, monsters . . . gets easier doesn’t it.

Putin is ex-KGB.
http://www.thetrumpet.com/article/9258.8103.0.0/europe/fascism/new-documents-reveal-the-nazi-past-of-germanys-leaders (http://www.thetrumpet.com/article/9258.8103.0.0/europe/fascism/new-documents-reveal-the-nazi-past-of-germanys-leaders)
‘Twenty-five cabinet members, one president and one chancellor of postwar Germany were former members of the Nazi Party, according to government papers released last year and recently analyzed by Spiegel Online.’ (2012).
Obama himself and endorsed by the Communist Party of America, can’t be considered a model of America ideals given his rather radical past.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/land/army/2015/01/21/ukraine-us-army-russia/22119315/ (http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/land/army/2015/01/21/ukraine-us-army-russia/22119315/)
‘WASHINGTON — American soldiers will deploy to Ukraine this spring to begin training four companies of the Ukrainian National Guard, the head of US Army Europe Lt. Gen Ben Hodges said during his first visit to Kiev on Wednesday.’

NATO is already moving up to the border in the Baltic States. American ‘advisors’ or ‘trainers’in the Ukraine? Now that’s when the sparks will begin to fly, possibly limited mushroom shaped ones.

[aboutime]

What I meant was people, not politicians. Of course a person has to start a war, but it’s not the people in the street. My point is that hate and demonization aren’t natural instincts. You would probably find it hard to kill someone’s father or brother, but what if you’re told they’re evil, subhuman, dangerous commies, they’re going to come over and rape your family, geeks, spicks, monsters . . . gets easier doesn’t it.

Putin is ex-KGB.
http://www.thetrumpet.com/article/9258.8103.0.0/europe/fascism/new-documents-reveal-the-nazi-past-of-germanys-leaders (http://www.thetrumpet.com/article/9258.8103.0.0/europe/fascism/new-documents-reveal-the-nazi-past-of-germanys-leaders)
‘Twenty-five cabinet members, one president and one chancellor of postwar Germany were former members of the Nazi Party, according to government papers released last year and recently analyzed by Spiegel Online.’ (2012).
Obama himself and endorsed by the Communist Party of America, can’t be considered a model of America ideals given his rather radical past.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/land/army/2015/01/21/ukraine-us-army-russia/22119315/ (http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/land/army/2015/01/21/ukraine-us-army-russia/22119315/)
‘WASHINGTON — American soldiers will deploy to Ukraine this spring to begin training four companies of the Ukrainian National Guard, the head of US Army Europe Lt. Gen Ben Hodges said during his first visit to Kiev on Wednesday.’

NATO is already moving up to the border in the Baltic States. American ‘advisors’ or ‘trainers’in the Ukraine? Now that’s when the sparks will begin to fly, possibly limited mushroom shaped ones.


John. NATO might as well be doomed, and a thing of the past. At least, from the Obama Foreign Relations/State Department point of view. Obama has all but BETRAYED most of the alliances in Europe related to NATO treaties, and American military support. Obama wants NO AMERICAN BOOTS on the ground anywhere. He is still the CUT AND RUN coward our former military...the portion of the military he has FIRED knows to be factual.
Anyone who defends PUTIN...other than reminding us he is STRONGER than Obama when it comes to leadership. Should stay there under the Putin HEEL.

[Drummond]

Sir Drummond. As I hope you recognized. I asked our member from Russia my question in a specific way for a reason.
You, and others may have also noticed how I NO LONGER waste time welcoming new members here in the Introduction thread.
I have been burned for my Unwelcome responses for exactly the reasons I asked our new Russian member those questions.
So. Since I distrust "Greeks bearing Gifts"...so to speak. I am weary of trying to play the hypocrisy role here just to be accepted, as I pretend to seem interested in such people.
On Monday. We observe....Not Celebrate...our Memorial Day here in the colonies. So I am doubtful of those GREEKS. If you get my drift.
I agree with you. But must add that OBAMA, like PUTIN, is also a threat to World Peace.

Yes, you asked him about Putin's threat to free speech. You got the reply that he wasn't defending Putin, but that he saw Putin as a strong leader.

It wasn't exactly a reassuring reply. Strength doesn't have to be a good thing. Hitler could've been said to be a strong leader. I think few would question that Stalin was. But I'd never believe that Stalin was good for Russia ..

By the way, I'm reminded of another contributor on another forum .. name of 'Volk'. Tyr might remember him. He posted from Moscow, was Russian, and in completely flawless English ... I'd say he even did better than me in that regard ! But he was a bit of a propagandist in his way, and even pro-Stalin.

I had some fun with him.

I also expect to have interesting exchanges with our British newcomer, John. Much to agree on ... but areas of disagreement exist as well, I think. We shall see.

Totally agree with you about Obama, and for a couple of reasons. One, he's way too soft on the world scene, and very possibly following an agenda not realised by most people, one highly deferential to Muslim ambition. His approach to Iran is ringing loud alarm bells with me.

I understand your Memorial day, Aboutime .. though the only equivalent we have in the UK happens late in the year. Thanks for telling me about yours being tomorrow (we have one of our Bank Holidays tomorrow .. hardly the same thing).


Oh, come on Little-Acorn, the west in general is hardly in a position to moralise about regime changes, invasions or Arab springs. :)



Perhaps better addressed in a future thread sometime .. but I'm curious about this. Right this minute, certainly, I'm struggling to think of any regime changes, invasions (etc) involving Western actions which I couldn't see as justifiable. Obviously your thinking is different on this (or these) matter/s.

Look forward to swapping perspectives ...

[John V]

Not all countries are the same. Some countries are so huge and so populated (China and Russia), that you couldn’t hold them together with democracy and equality, they need strong leaders. Also, countries in the Middle East because of Muslims also need strong leaders. Getting rid of people like Gaddafi and Saddam simply opened a Pandora’s box of nightmares and Syria’s Assad already warned of ISIS long before it happened. I think what we have to accept is that we can’t socially engineer a world with societies the way we’d want them to be, but it’s part of the west’s sameness equality agenda.


I realise it might not a popular opinion, but for all its intervention, what has the west actually produced? Of course, it does good things in maintaining a presence in places like South Korea for instance, kicking Saddam out of Kuwait, or keeping the world’s crazies at bay, but it could do a lot better by being less interventionist and accepting the rights of others to also clean up their own backyards.


I think the mistake the west made was that it expected Russia to roll over and play dead and it would then go in, annex the Ukraine to the EU and grab the pipelines. I don’t consider Putin a threat to world peace, but if I ever see a Russian warship sailing down the English Channel or parked off the coast of Florida, I’m likely to change my mind. ;)




Right this minute, certainly, I'm struggling to think of any regime changes, invasions (etc) involving Western actions which I couldn't see as justifiable. Obviously your thinking is different on this (or these) matter/s.


That's the keyword, isn't it, 'justifiable'.

[Kathianne]

Not all countries are the same. Some countries are so huge and so populated(China and Russia), that you couldn’t hold them together with democracy and equality, they need strong leaders. Also, countries in the Middle East because of Muslims also need strong leaders. Getting rid of people like Gaddafi and Saddam simply opened a Pandora’s box of nightmares and Syria’s Assad already warned of ISIS long before it happened. I think what we have to accept is that we can’t socially engineer a world with societies the way we’d want them to be, but it’s part of the west’s sameness equality agenda.


I realise it might not a popular opinion, but for all its intervention, what has the west actually produced? Of course, it does good things in maintaining a presence in places like South Korea for instance, kicking Saddam out of Kuwait, or keeping the world’s crazies at bay, but it could do a lot better by being less interventionist and accepting the rights of others to also clean up their own backyards.


I think the mistake the west made was that it expected Russia to roll over and play dead and it would then go in, annex the Ukraine to the EU and grab the pipelines. I don’t consider Putin a threat to world peace, but if I ever see a Russian warship sailing down the English Channel or parked off the coast of Florida, I’m likely to change my mind. ;)



The US has nearly double the population of Russia.

[Drummond]

What I meant was people, not politicians. Of course a person has to start a war, but it’s not the people in the street.
Fair enough.


My point is that hate and demonization aren’t natural instincts. You would probably find it hard to kill someone’s father or brother, but what if you’re told they’re evil, subhuman, dangerous commies, they’re going to come over and rape your family, geeks, spicks, monsters . . . gets easier doesn’t it.

Again .. fair point as it stands. Though your 'demonisation' point (I see you used the American spelling ?) is perhaps a tad sweeping. There's nothing to say that what you're being told can't actually be the truth !

Consider Hitler's Third Reich, and the many monstrous aspects of it. Listing them could sound like an attempt at demonisation, yet, in truth, it'd all be grounded in reality.

One has to take each case on its merits.


Putin is ex-KGB.

http://www.thetrumpet.com/article/9258.8103.0.0/europe/fascism/new-documents-reveal-the-nazi-past-of-germanys-leaders (http://www.thetrumpet.com/article/9258.8103.0.0/europe/fascism/new-documents-reveal-the-nazi-past-of-germanys-leaders)
‘Twenty-five cabinet members, one president and one chancellor of postwar Germany were former members of the Nazi Party, according to government papers released last year and recently analyzed by Spiegel Online.’ (2012).

Obama himself and endorsed by the Communist Party of America, can’t be considered a model of America ideals given his rather radical past.
I'd certainly agree on Obama. For the life of me, I can't comprehend why America voted for him ... and twice !

If you're trying to make a bigger overall point, along the lines of 'a person's past doesn't have to be an indicator of what he'll be in the future, or that the past in question has relevance' ... this could be a fair point. Then again, in certain specific instances, the opposite may be true. One simply cannot generalise.

I see no reason for anything but the utmost caution where Putin's concerned. Consider the psychology. What was the KGB ? How did it conduct itself ? Within what form of bigger and all-powerful and autocratic framework did it, itself, operate ? THEN ... link it to the present day, comparably strength-oriented scenario. Each scenario, the current one and the old one, have the running of a country through 'strong figurehead' methodology in common. Why, then, wouldn't Putin's actions follow similar behaviours ?


http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/land/army/2015/01/21/ukraine-us-army-russia/22119315/ (http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/land/army/2015/01/21/ukraine-us-army-russia/22119315/)
‘WASHINGTON — American soldiers will deploy to Ukraine this spring to begin training four companies of the Ukrainian National Guard, the head of US Army Europe Lt. Gen Ben Hodges said during his first visit to Kiev on Wednesday.’

NATO is already moving up to the border in the Baltic States. American ‘advisors’ or ‘trainers’in the Ukraine? Now that’s when the sparks will begin to fly, possibly limited mushroom shaped ones.

I'm inclined to take this lot with a hefty pinch of salt. What, where Obama's leadership or influence is concerned, lends itself to any observation of 'strong' leadership in international matters ? Why should that change now ? It's not as though there's been any reason to observe any development of a greater hawkishness over any period of time that would account for its emergence now.

Obama's light years away from Margaret Thatcher's 'Falklands' spirit. In fact, the two could hardly be any more different.

[Drummond]

I'll come back to this thread tomorrow. I'm in the same position as our Russian newcomer ... not far off from 3AM where I am ...

[John V]

I use both American and British English word spelling on word docs.

Yes, demonization can be truthful, but in every lead up to hostilities you’ll see it being used. Iraq was a prime example: He’s got WMD’s, he’s going to use them, he’s a dictator, free the Iraqi’s from tyranny . . . in any hostile build up look for the propaganda, because that always comes first.

Look at Stalin’s Russia instead of Hitler’s Reich and the many monstrous aspects of it. Good v bad doesn’t come into it, political expediency does. If the UK was so concerned with Poland’s independence, why did it not also declare war on Russia who annexed the Eastern part of it – but that’s another matter.

The KGB was simply State apparatus and used the same tricks MI5 and MI6 does, they’re no different, subversion, espionage, it’s what they do.

Will America send troops to the Ukraine or will it never happen. The plan is there, whether it will go ahead, I doubt it myself, but it’s on the agenda. That NATO is moving forward into Poland and the Baltic States is already fact.

[aboutime]

Not all countries are the same. Some countries are so huge and so populated (China and Russia), that you couldn’t hold them together with democracy and equality, they need strong leaders. Also, countries in the Middle East because of Muslims also need strong leaders. Getting rid of people like Gaddafi and Saddam simply opened a Pandora’s box of nightmares and Syria’s Assad already warned of ISIS long before it happened. I think what we have to accept is that we can’t socially engineer a world with societies the way we’d want them to be, but it’s part of the west’s sameness equality agenda.


I realise it might not a popular opinion, but for all its intervention, what has the west actually produced? Of course, it does good things in maintaining a presence in places like South Korea for instance, kicking Saddam out of Kuwait, or keeping the world’s crazies at bay, but it could do a lot better by being less interventionist and accepting the rights of others to also clean up their own backyards.


I think the mistake the west made was that it expected Russia to roll over and play dead and it would then go in, annex the Ukraine to the EU and grab the pipelines. I don’t consider Putin a threat to world peace, but if I ever see a Russian warship sailing down the English Channel or parked off the coast of Florida, I’m likely to change my mind. ;)



NEWSFLASH John. If you insist that Putin isn't a threat to world peace. I would be suspect of your lack of information.
As for those Russian warships sailing down the English channel. Or off the coast of Florida.
I have PERSONALLY witnessed, and know of both taking place.
Guess you've never heard of the "FREEDOM OF THE SEA'S" treaties?
International waters are widespread, and few NON-seagoing people even know what that means.
I was aboard a RUSSIAN ship...in the port of Norfolk, Va, and even traded Post cards with Russian Navy Sailors, for a Navy Baseball hat.
So...be careful what you ask for.

[John V]

NEWSFLASH John. If you insist that Putin isn't a threat to world peace. I would be suspect of your lack of information.
As for those Russian warships sailing down the English channel. Or off the coast of Florida.
I have PERSONALLY witnessed, and know of both taking place.
Guess you've never heard of the "FREEDOM OF THE SEA'S" treaties?
International waters are widespread, and few NON-seagoing people even know what that means.
I was aboard a RUSSIAN ship...in the port of Norfolk, Va, and even traded Post cards with Russian Navy Sailors, for a Navy Baseball hat.
So...be careful what you ask for.

If there were Russian ships in a U.S. port they were invited there. Be very sure of this, the gung-ho days are over and if this escalates there won’t be an American naval department left, or its Russian equivalent. Russia isn’t some Afghanistan or Iraq and America only remains the most military powerful nation on earth until the first nuclear devices explode. After that it will be fighting with sticks and rocks, the same as everyone else.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not an apologist for Putin or Xi Jinping, yet what Putin is doing in the Ukraine is exactly what America tried to do in Cuba and England did in Ireland.

What the west did is try to annex the Ukraine and when that didn’t work they tried sanctions and when that didn’t work they’re now trying a show of military might. In between all that is the propaganda build up same as usual; dictator, threat to world peace, he might invade us . . .

Look at all this from another perspective; Russia has been invaded twice during the 20th century by the west, not the other way around and what the average Russian now sees is again a western army moving towards its borders and spouting rhetoric. What do you think the average Russian assumes, given the past, when they again see western tank divisions surrounding them? All Putin is saying is stop, there’s the red line, now go and try it on with someone else.

Now what Putin is like with his internal policies I don’t know, but I see him as a conservative, patriotic and able to stand up for his country and despite his faults, which he’s sure to have, you can’t ask for much more than that from a leader.

[Gunny]

My take on the Ukraine.
The Ukraine is a basket case economically and so why would anyone want it. When it all started I looked at who was involved, the U.S. and European Union and why. There’s that old saying isn’t there; if Iraq had grown carrots it would never have been invaded. Anyway, then I saw Russian pipelines that flowed gas into Europe and it all started to make sense. Putin steps in, draws a red line and sends both packing. The west stamps its foot and replies with sanctions, NATO moves its forces close to the Russian border; Russia retaliates by sending its aircraft closer to the western borders . . . that’s where we are now.

Meanwhile the U.S. sends a warship to the South China seas in the islands dispute between China and Japan – and that’s not going down well here at all and it’s building up anti-American feeling. I’ve actually started to carry my English passport around with me. It’s a bit like the old Cuba thing – not in our backyard, but Russia and China today are very different from those of old, very nationalistic and both are able to back up their rhetoric with deeds as well as words. I’ve a feeling it won’t end well if all three start flexing their muscles.



The only thing Obama flexes is his rhetoric.

[Polite Russian]

I did think we'd have areas of disagreement, John.

I actually agree with much of the above. But you said 'no person ever started a war' ... and Hitler immediately sprang to mind, as one person who did.

Putin may be leader of a 'free' Russia, but still, he's ex-KGB. And in the Wikipedia entry I quoted from before, it said there'd been independent verification of Russian troops in Ukraine, along with accounts of Russian efforts to suppress the release of that information. Sounds like old-style Soviet methods to me ...

I believe Putin to be a threat to world peace, unless he starts backtracking on his present course.


Putin is the same threat to the world peace as the Obama. You guys bomb Iraq, Serbia, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, Iran, Libya and some else. You guys started more wars then us. In that case Putin is a peaceful grandpa in comparison with United states...

About Wikipedia. It is free, so anybody can write anything. So here, in Russia Wikipedia links is not a good source of information.

About Wikipedia. It is free, so anybody can write anything. So here, in Russia Wikipedia links is not a good source of information. We don't use wiki as a proof


_______
damn. 2 same posts. Sorry

[John V]

Putin is the same threat to the world peace as the Obama. You guys bomb Iraq, Serbia, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, Iran, Libya and some else. You guys started more wars then us. In that case Putin is a peaceful grandpa in comparison with United states...

He does have a point guys. All this moralising about intervening to change the world has only led to it getting a lot worse. We all look at what is going on in the west with horror, but yet we expect other countries to welcome it. It’s not anti-American or anti-European to say other countries don’t want diversity, multiculturalism and dumbing down.

[Perianne]

He does have a point guys. All this moralising about intervening to change the world has only led to it getting a lot worse. We all look at what is going on in the west with horror, but yet we expect other countries to welcome it. It’s not anti-American or anti-European to say other countries don’t want diversity, multiculturalism and dumbing down.



As I have said before, my mother and I came here in 1960. Look at the changes (for the worse) in America since then. Having fancy phones, IPads, and the best shopping centers does not cover up the rot that is leftism in America.

[Gunny]

Putin is the same threat to the world peace as the Obama. You guys bomb Iraq, Serbia, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, Iran, Libya and some else. You guys started more wars then us. In that case Putin is a peaceful grandpa in comparison with United states...

Actually, just Stalin alone killed more of his own people than the US has in our entire existence. And I beg to differ as to who has started more wars.

Korea and Serbia were UN actions, not a US action, and was not a war, and we didn't start it. You got some right to talk about Serbia anyway. Tito was a Communist Kremlin puppet and seems to me the USSR sent the Army into Belgrade to squash a rebellion.

We bombed the Taliban in Afghanistan for refusing to turn over a terrorist responsible for 9/11. We bombed a terrorist dictator in Libya for screwing with us.

Vietnam was a SEATO action in which we originally provided only advisors to stop the spread of ... you guessed it ... Communism. YOUR country provided the aggressors in that war with weapons. Those were MIGs getting shot down.

Might want to brush up on your Cold War history before trying to take a shot at ME.

You might also want to brush up on context and your message board skills. I didn't say a word about Putin. But I WILL now. He's a typical, Cold War, USSR KGB thug. Nothing more.

[Gunny]

He does have a point guys. All this moralising about intervening to change the world has only led to it getting a lot worse. We all look at what is going on in the west with horror, but yet we expect other countries to welcome it. It’s not anti-American or anti-European to say other countries don’t want diversity, multiculturalism and dumbing down.



No he doesn't. WHAT point? The only thing Obama has been a threat to is the US Constitution. If you call what Obama is doing interventionism, we must have different dictionaries.

Now, if you want to say his abysmal foreign policies are threatening the world, I could agree. Which has nothing to do with the Russian dude trying to justify his commie thug President's aggression by incorrectly claiming we have started more wars.

The fact is, Russia pre-dates the US by centuries. Crap, Russia's been around as long as my Scot ancestors. You're talking over a thousand years before the US was thought of.

[John V]

Attacking a country is not an ‘action’, invasion is not a ‘regime change’ and ‘screwing with us’ is no reason to bomb anyone. Reagan ended the cold war because he used words not actions and will be forever remembered for it. Communism has gone, but the west is still in a cold war mentality. Imagine if Russia had allowed America and the EU into the Ukraine, we wouldn’t be having this conversation now would we, because he’d then be one of the ‘good’ guys. Pakistan is a hotbed of terrorism, Saudi Arabia sponsers much of the terrorim going on today, but they’re the good guys too.


The moralisation of good v bad dependes on which country you’re in. The old USSR was certainly no angel and that’s putting it mildly, but the U.S. isn’t exactly getting a good press in today’s world either. Imagine the trillions and lives saved if you had left other countries to sort out there own problems unless directly affected; you wouldn’t even need a Homeland security, also costing billions. Policing the world has produced nothing but millions dead and large profits for the arms industries and the likes of Cheney and his cohorts.
The communist thug stuff is straight out of a cold war rhetoric that ended decades ago. :)

[Polite Russian]

So some of you, guys, think, that it's all is russian aggression? And what about NATO, moving closer to our borders? We can't ignore that.

[DLT]

Hellow everybody. I dont know, where can I post that theme, so, if it shoud be somwhere else (not in "USA Political Discussion), may be Admin can move it to another section?


Well. I looked at some videos, and undrestood, that you, guys, dont know anything about Russia, situation here and so on. So, if you are interested about your "potential enemy", you can ask me here. I will try to answer you obоjectively. Ask about anything, you want to know.

And sorry for bad English of cource :)

Welcome to the party!

And....did you bring the Stoli?

[tailfins]

So some of you, guys, think, that it's all is russian aggression? And what about NATO, moving closer to our borders? We can't ignore that.

The concern is that Putin, a former KGB agent, wants to bring back the old Soviet Union.

[aboutime]

He does have a point guys. All this moralising about intervening to change the world has only led to it getting a lot worse. We all look at what is going on in the west with horror, but yet we expect other countries to welcome it. It’s not anti-American or anti-European to say other countries don’t want diversity, multiculturalism and dumbing down.




IMO. The word Multiculturalism has been bastardized, and is now a Liberal code word for (sanctioned) Discrimination.

Since when does wanting to be Free to speak, have the liberties granted, and right to live without fear become Moralizing?

[Polite Russian]

Welcome to the party!

And....did you bring the Stoli?


Sorry... Did I bring what? :)

[NightTrain]

So some of you, guys, think, that it's all is russian aggression? And what about NATO, moving closer to our borders? We can't ignore that.


I think Putin is taking advantage of America having an extremely weak president, and his #1 concern is to rebuild Russia into Superpower status again. I don't blame him for the maneuverings and what he's done - his agenda is his country and he's doing what he thinks is best for Russia, and that's the hallmark of a strong leader, which he most certainly is.

That being said, I don't think what he's done is right. A hundred years ago this sort of thing wouldn't have raised an eyebrow, but today things are much different.

I'm positive that Putin would not have pulled those stunts in Crimea or Ukraine with George W. Bush as President, or any other President we've had recently other than Jimmy Carter.

The training and NATO movements are in response to the crisis after the fact - to my knowledge, there were no intervention issues by the USA or the EU prior to the land grab.

The responses and sanctions from the West were in retaliation for Putin's move, and you have to admit there had to be some kind of response - annexing parts of neighboring countries these days is frowned upon in the international community.

At any rate, my words are not meant to insult you, simply my own thoughts on the situation. We all know you're not calling the shots and aren't responsible for what's been happening, and it's good to hear from a Russian to see what your views are. You're proud of your country, just as we're proud of ours and that's as it should be.

With any luck, all of this won't spin out of control and end up in a military confrontation.

[Polite Russian]

The concern is that Putin, a former KGB agent, wants to bring back the old Soviet Union.


No offence, but it sounds like paranoia.

Soviet Union... Damn, so many Americans think, that Russia is tha same country as the Soviet Union (I hate ussr btw).

[jimnyc]

Sorry... Did I bring what? :)

"Stolichnaya" Vodka, also known as just "Stoli".

In America, it's often told that good vodka (and good vodka drinkers) come from Russia. Also, drivers with awesome dash cam footage for me to enjoy. :)

[Polite Russian]

I think Putin is taking advantage of America having an extremely weak president, and his #1 concern is to rebuild Russia into Superpower status again. I don't blame him for the maneuverings and what he's done - his agenda is his country and he's doing what he thinks is best for Russia, and that's the hallmark of a strong leader, which he most certainly is.

That being said, I don't think what he's done is right. A hundred years ago this sort of thing wouldn't have raised an eyebrow, but today things are much different.

I'm positive that Putin would not have pulled those stunts in Crimea or Ukraine with George W. Bush as President, or any other President we've had recently other than Jimmy Carter.

The training and NATO movements are in response to the crisis after the fact - to my knowledge, there were no intervention issues by the USA or the EU prior to the land grab.

The responses and sanctions from the West were in retaliation for Putin's move, and you have to admit there had to be some kind of response - annexing parts of neighboring countries these days is frowned upon in the international community.

At any rate, my words are not meant to insult you, simply my own thoughts on the situation. We all know you're not calling the shots and aren't responsible for what's been happening, and it's good to hear from a Russian to see what your views are. You're proud of your country, just as we're proud of ours and that's as it should be.

With any luck, all of this won't spin out of control and end up in a military confrontation.


Thanks.
But about Crimea...we can't ignore, that people(!), who live there really want to be part of Russia. They never talk on ukrain language, they call themself RUSSIANS.
And about our military forces in Crimea. We had an old agreement with the Ukraine, that three are some russian military bases in Crimea. :)
so our military was there legaly.

btw.
I like usa. Not your government, but country. And army, of course. :)
i want to see russian and American soldiers fighting together against Islamic radicals.

[Polite Russian]

"Stolichnaya" Vodka, also known as just "Stoli".

In America, it's often told that good vodka (and good vodka drinkers) come from Russia. Also, drivers with awesome dash cam footage for me to enjoy. :)


oh, I understand. But I'm a strange russian. I don't drink alcohol.
And about drivers and cams. we got a good words about it :)

here, in Russia, we got two problems:
fools and roads

[Little-Acorn]

Welcome.

I regard Russia as a potential friend.

But I do hope they will stop invading other countries, and will give back what they have taken and leave those countries.
Oh, come on Little-Acorn, the west in general is hardly in a position to moralise about regime changes, invasions or Arab springs.


People often use the "If you're not perfect, you can't complain" dodge to try to deflect criticism they can't answer.

My comments stand.

[Little-Acorn]

Thanks.
But about Crimea...we can't ignore, that people(!), who live there really want to be part of Russia. They never talk on ukrain language, they call themself RUSSIANS.
And about our military forces in Crimea. We had an old agreement with the Ukraine, that three are some russian military bases in Crimea. :)
so our military was there legaly.
Similarly, we have a military base in Cuba. It is there legally also.

But if we ever send forces from that base into the Cuban cities or countryside and start killing Cuban citizens, when Cuban citizens have not been attacking us or giving aid and comfort to those who attacked or planned to attack us, that action would be illegal. And in fact would be an act of war.


btw.
I like usa. Not your government, but country. And army, of course. :)

There are things I do not like about our present government, too. Many of us are trying to change those things, and recently have made progress, with more to come in 2016. If our government would obey our own Constitution, it would be a major step in the right direction.


i want to see russian and American soldiers fighting together against Islamic radicals.
This would be another major step in the right direction. Your country and mine (and others) fought together against a savage tyranny in the 1940s, and defeated and destroyed it. It would be wonderful if we could do so again against the savage tyranny of militant Islamic radicals - both those on the front lines, and those who directly support them.

Unfortunately those Islamic radical savages hide among other Islamic people who are not radical savages and who do not want war. This makes our task harder. We faced something of the same situation in the 1940s, and the result was horrible as both militants and non-militants dies en masse. Though no one has yet found a better solution that would actually work.

[John V]

IMO. The word Multiculturalism has been bastardized, and is now a Liberal code word for (sanctioned) Discrimination.

Since when does wanting to be Free to speak, have the liberties granted, and right to live without fear become Moralizing?

Multiculturalism is mass immigration and discrimination is affirmative action (or in the UK, reverse discrimination); two different things, but both aspects of cultural Marxism.

The code words like ‘actions’ and ‘regime change’ hide behind them actual meanings. ‘Waterboarding’ is not surfing; a ‘police action’ is not a check on criminal activity and ‘collateral damage’ is not a loan default.
‘Proportional response’ or ‘humanitarian intervention’, whether that be ‘limited, targetted or surgical’ is a play on semantics using euphanisms to disguise their true meanings. ‘Neutralising a threat’ is killing someone. Conversely, the response throughout the world has not been ‘anti-Islamic activity’, it’s called terrorism.
The left are experts on it; Pelosi remarking on a possible war with Syria: “I mean, we’re not talking about war, we’re talking about an action here.”

You already have all the rights you mention, trying to enforce your ideology on the rest the world through force isn’t welcome. You can’t change cultures through ‘actions’ and ‘necessary intervention.’

Tailfins makes a fair point, that Putin is trying to expand Russian teritory and the media agree, it’s where you get it from. So, after over a decade in power I see no Russian tanks heading towards Finland or the Baltic States, but I do see NATO moving its forces towards Russia’s borders and together with the media telling us, ‘they might’. You got the same kind of demonisation and possibilities build up with Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, your economy is in tatters, your cities are social nightmares, protests and riots on the streets . . . but any minute now you’ll see Russians tanks on the horrizon – keep the masses focused?

[Jeff]

Hello PR and welcome aboard.

[Drummond]

I use both American and British English word spelling on word docs.

Yes, demonization can be truthful, but in every lead up to hostilities you’ll see it being used. Iraq was a prime example: He’s got WMD’s,
... He certainly did have them, everyone knew it. As the Kurds found out, the hard way !


he’s going to use them,

Why work so very hard to remain unaccountable for them, unless such a stock existed, AND Saddam had plans for them ? Assumptions such as those made were reasonable and logical


he’s a dictator, free the Iraqi’s from tyranny

Considering all he'd done that was bad, with the likelihood of more of the same .. why ever not ?


. . . in any hostile build up look for the propaganda, because that always comes first.

.. and/or TRUTH, as it's known.

As you'll find elsewhere on this forum, John, I'm not only a committed staunch supporter of the Iraq invasion, I consider that it HAD to happen. To not have invaded would've been a massive mistake which the world would've paid a very dear price for.


Look at Stalin’s Russia instead of Hitler’s Reich and the many monstrous aspects of it. Good v bad doesn’t come into it, political expediency does. If the UK was so concerned with Poland’s independence, why did it not also declare war on Russia who annexed the Eastern part of it – but that’s another matter.
Perhaps a reasonable point. But ... one wrong decision, or a failure to make one, doesn't invalidate the correctness of the other.


The KGB was simply State apparatus and used the same tricks MI5 and MI6 does, they’re no different, subversion, espionage, it’s what they do.

Their functions might have had similarities (.. though we've never heard of MI6 equivalents to the murder of Litvinenko, have we ??). But the real difference is in what each agency fights to support.

The KGB existed to serve the interests of the Soviet Empire, to give an edge to a ruthless dictatorship. MI5, MI6, supported the British Government system of freedom and democracy. Just the teensiest bit different, I suggest .. !


Will America send troops to the Ukraine or will it never happen. The plan is there, whether it will go ahead, I doubt it myself, but it’s on the agenda. That NATO is moving forward into Poland and the Baltic States is already fact.

Obama has proved himself to be rather lily-livered on the world stage. 'It will never happen' is my belief ... because Obama would rather cut and run as a favoured strategy than do anything else.

[John V]

People often use the "If you're not perfect, you can't complain" dodge to try to deflect criticism they can't answer.

My comments stand.



Well yes, if you insist on regime changes, invasions and policing the world, you can’t really point the finger at others. Here’s an eye opener for you; every other country thinks they’re special and exceptional too.


I don’t deflect criticism, give me a question and I’ll give you my opinion on it. It probably won’t be the same as yours, as I don’t get my news from 24/7 Fox or CNN mass media bombardment, I often get it from direct observation and experience.

[Drummond]

Look at all this from another perspective; Russia has been invaded twice during the 20th century by the west, not the other way around

You want the West to take responsibility for Hitler's military adventurism ?

And you seem to have forgotten the expansion of the USSR. Germans woke up one day to find out that part of Berlin had become a prison camp ... people, families trapped behind the Berlin Wall, forbidden from freely travelling to that part of Berlin remaining in Western hands.


and what the average Russian now sees is again a western army moving towards its borders and spouting rhetoric. What do you think the average Russian assumes, given the past, when they again see western tank divisions surrounding them? All Putin is saying is stop, there’s the red line, now go and try it on with someone else.

So, do you, too, discount Putin's annexation of the Crimea as an act of empire building, and do you disbelieve accounts of Russian troops invading Ukrainian territory (as well as fomenting trouble via rebel stooges) ?


Now what Putin is like with his internal policies I don’t know, but I see him as a conservative, patriotic and able to stand up for his country and despite his faults, which he’s sure to have, you can’t ask for much more than that from a leader.

Actually, you can. You can ask a leader to show respect for the autonomy of different nations. You can ask one to put away ideas of expansionism and instead to work, not through military threats, but through cooperative negotiation, instead.


Putin is the same threat to the world peace as the Obama. You guys bomb Iraq, Serbia, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, Iran, Libya and some else. You guys started more wars then us. In that case Putin is a peaceful grandpa in comparison with United states...

... whereas you just marched into Afghanistan and took it over !!

Where did that lead ? With you being booted out again within a few years, and with one Osama bin Laden given the chance to mutate his cause from freedom fighter into international terrorist menace !! Had your own invasion of Afghanistan never been launched, bin Laden wouldn't have received the support he did initially, because there'd have been no reason to supply it (!!) ... which in turn could well have robbed him of the chance to build Al Qaeda into the terrorist monstrosity it had become, by September 2001 !!

Afghanistan was bombed to deal with Al Qaeda's terrorist camps there. Without the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, bin Laden's Al Qaeda might never have been born, or, might have been a far smaller organisation not needing such drastic action.

Iraq was dealt with as a part of the War on Terror, with a brutal dictator booted out of power. What great need, in the service of world security, did Russia have to launch its own invasion of Afghanistan ???

Vietnam .. a country fighting to shake off a Communist tyranny, with American forces assisting (and being stabbed in the back by Leftie traitors like Jane Fonda, aka 'Hanoi Jane').

Libya. Rebel forces resisting tyranny from Gaddafi, with Coalition help. By the way ... David Cameron spent days trying to talk Obama into getting involved. He only reluctantly did so.

America fights tyrants and freedom-crushers. The USSR was an empire exporting Communist dictatorship to its satellite States.

Hungary, 1956. Czechoslovakia, 1968. Afghanistan, 1980. All of them examples of a dictatorship exerting its will against beleaguered nations.


Well yes, if you insist on regime changes, invasions and policing the world, you can’t really point the finger at others.
Consider the case of Iraq. In Saddam, the world had a maverick dictator, known for invading other countries, known to have once had a stockpile of WMD's .. and to possess a mindset willing to be friendly to terrorists (he even bankrolled one such group).

Where 'policing' was concerned, the UN had a very considerable latitude to get the matter of Iraq dealt with. But their efforts were feeble, with Saddam ignoring them for most of the time. When he did finally take notice, it was to lead inspection teams by the hand to see disposal sites he wanted them to see. Blix and his team had no real power to do what they really needed to do. Chances are that if America hadn't acted (with some limited British support, support I'm proud of .. except that we should've done MORE to assist), the UN would've been faffing around, uselessly and impotently, for another decade .. while the tyrants of the world looked on, and laughed their guts out.

America proved to everyone needing to learn it that there WERE serious consequences involved from unsanctioned WMD stockpiling. It has been a useful deterrence in the world.


Here’s an eye opener for you; every other country thinks they’re special and exceptional too.

I wonder if Russia felt the same, when tanks were ordered on to Hungarian streets in 1956 ? Or when they split families apart when the Berlin Wall went up ?

[aboutime]

... whereas you just marched into Afghanistan and took it over !!

Where did that lead ? With you being booted out again within a few years, and with one Osama bin Laden given the chance to mutate his cause from freedom fighter into international terrorist menace !! Had your own invasion of Afghanistan never been launched, bin Laden wouldn't have received the support he did initially, because there'd have been no reason to supply it (!!) ... which in turn could well have robbed him of the chance to build Al Qaeda into the terrorist monstrosity it had become, by September 2001 !!

Afghanistan was bombed to deal with Al Qaeda's terrorist camps there. Without the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, bin Laden's Al Qaeda might never have been born, or, might have been a far smaller organisation not needing such drastic action.

Iraq was dealt with as a part of the War on Terror, with a brutal dictator booted out of power. What great need, in the service of world security, did Russia have to launch its own invasion of Afghanistan ???

Vietnam .. a country fighting to shake off a Communist tyranny, with American forces assisting (and being stabbed in the back by Leftie traitors like Jane Fonda, aka 'Hanoi Jane').

Libya. Rebel forces resisting tyranny from Gaddafi, with Coalition help. By the way ... David Cameron spent days trying to talk Obama into getting involved. He only reluctantly did so.

America fights tyrants and freedom-crushers. The USSR was an empire exporting Communist dictatorship to its satellite States.

Hungary, 1956. Czechoslovakia, 1968. Afghanistan, 1980. All of them examples of a dictatorship exerting its will against beleaguered nations.

Sir Drummond. As you may, or may not have noticed. I have been summarily scolded for being Myself here. Questioning, and being so very suspicious of what I called "Greeks bearing Gifts."
So, based on my past experiences here. I am now much less trusting of other members who seem to believe, and emphasize how terrible my approach to New members is here. Much less someone from Russia who praises Putin like he is the best thing since SLICED BREAD...so to speak.
Of course. We must mind our P's, and Q's here, as to not intimidate, offend, or insult strangers who are like Obama guests at the White House. Thank you for using the wonders of Historic facts here. Something many should use to enlighten themselves more often.

[Drummond]

No offence, but it sounds like paranoia.

Soviet Union... Damn, so many Americans think, that Russia is tha same country as the Soviet Union (I hate ussr btw).

I strongly suspect that Putin misses the days when Russia was happily empire-building. Many in the West see the annexation of Crimea as perhaps the start of a greater process of expansionism. I've even heard Putin being compared to Hitler.

The Crimea situation seems comparable to me of Hitler and his annexation of the Sudetenland (.. German speakers there ..). Austria followed. And he didn't stop there, of course ..

[Gunny]

Attacking a country is not an ‘action’, invasion is not a ‘regime change’ and ‘screwing with us’ is no reason to bomb anyone. Reagan ended the cold war because he used words not actions and will be forever remembered for it. Communism has gone, but the west is still in a cold war mentality. Imagine if Russia had allowed America and the EU into the Ukraine, we wouldn’t be having this conversation now would we, because he’d then be one of the ‘good’ guys. Pakistan is a hotbed of terrorism, Saudi Arabia sponsers much of the terrorim going on today, but they’re the good guys too.


The moralisation of good v bad dependes on which country you’re in. The old USSR was certainly no angel and that’s putting it mildly, but the U.S. isn’t exactly getting a good press in today’s world either. Imagine the trillions and lives saved if you had left other countries to sort out there own problems unless directly affected; you wouldn’t even need a Homeland security, also costing billions. Policing the world has produced nothing but millions dead and large profits for the arms industries and the likes of Cheney and his cohorts.
The communist thug stuff is straight out of a cold war rhetoric that ended decades ago. :)

Uh ... no. Reagan out-spent the USSR to end the Cold War. And don't blame "the West" on ME. I was raised in a COld War military family, then spent 21 years in the military, half of which were during the Cold War. Don't ascribe MY mentality to everyone else.

I could give a rat's ass about the Ukraine. But don't piss down my neck and tell me it's raining. It's about Putin not paying for a pipeline.

Moral equivalency arguments are O-L-D. REALLY old. And they don't work on me. Nor am I "the US". I guarantee you there'd be a whole lot less problems if *I* was running this crap. See my first 3 sentences, this paragraph for my opinion on blaming Cheney and arms manufacturers. So, Cheney and arms manufacturers created radical Islam. That's a stretch.

And here's what I think about policing the world. If someone's stupid idealism is a threat to the entire world -- convert or die -- then someone needs to step up to the plate and I don't see any of you Euro's scampering to do it.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" -- Edmund Burke

[Drummond]

Sir Drummond. As you may, or may not have noticed. I have been summarily scolded for being Myself here. Questioning, and being so very suspicious of what I called "Greeks bearing Gifts."
So, based on my past experiences here. I am now much less trusting of other members who seem to believe, and emphasize how terrible my approach to New members is here. Much less someone from Russia who praises Putin like he is the best thing since SLICED BREAD...so to speak.
Of course. We must mind our P's, and Q's here, as to not intimidate, offend, or insult strangers who are like Obama guests at the White House. Thank you for using the wonders of Historic facts here. Something many should use to enlighten themselves more often.

I wouldn't worry. We each of us have a duty, as I see it, to represent what we believe in with honesty and candour. If others don't like it, they can test what you have to say with countering arguments. If those arguments fail, it's because there's reason for them to fail. I believe we should certainly be welcoming to new members, BUT, once a part of this debating community, they ask for whatever responses their contributions earn them.

Why be here, in the first place, if you don't want your contributions put to the test of wider consideration ?

I'll check to be sure, but I believe our new Russian friend still hasn't answered the point of how ordinary Russians view and interpret sanctions placed on Russia. He has a right not to answer, just as others have a right to properly observe the lack of one.

And I might add: our newcomer may be nothing more or less than a product of the output his own media exposes him to. If I only listened to the biases of the BBC, and had my head filled with them, then that would make me a victim of what I'd experienced.

[John V]

@ Drummond

In which case why not attack or try to remove North Korea or Zimbabwe, both dictatorships and both in need of ‘regime change’. Iraq, Syria, Libya . . . all oil producing countries, Ukraine and Afghanistan, oil pipes lines . . . Is this a coincidence?

Saddam certainly had chemical weapons which he used, but you know yourself that the pretext of invasion by Blair was based on a dated Ph.D thesis that stated he might have WMD’s, not gas. The excuse of, ‘he did, he just hid them so we didn’t find them’ sounded a bit lame afterwards.

Oh come on now, MI5/6, the SAS, aren’t up to God knows what in the world? We tiptoe around bringing democracy, peace and love to the world? Churchill said, ‘We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm’. Of course we deny any wrong doing, so do the Russians and so does everyone else. Espionage, spies, counter subversion . . . It’s applicable to all major countries.

Yes I agree, Litvinenko was very probably an assassination, but that was never proved or admitted by any government either. David Kelly’s ‘suicide’ (the WMD’s in Iraq ‘dodgy dossier’ scientist), still throws up a lot of questions. I’m not surprised that someone like the whistle blower Snowden fears for his life. Please note that he didn’t run to other countries in the west for safety.

Our security services ‘support’ the government and the KGB ‘served’ the interests of an empire? The west also doesn’t try to destabilise regimes, gather information and side with dictators when the situation warrants it? My point is that it might be a mistake to see the west as goodies v the rest of the world as baddies and that versions of events provided by western governments and a media consolidation of CNN, Fox or the BBC aren’t the only sources available. Try Al Jazeera for instance, which doesn’t mean it’s right but gives a different perspective of events and how the ‘other side’ views things.

[aboutime]

@ Drummond

In which case why not attack or try to remove North Korea or Zimbabwe, both dictatorships and both in need of ‘regime change’. Iraq, Syria, Libya . . . all oil producing countries, Ukraine and Afghanistan, oil pipes lines . . . Is this a coincidence?

Saddam certainly had chemical weapons which he used, but you know yourself that the pretext of invasion by Blair was based on a dated Ph.D thesis that stated he might have WMD’s, not gas. The excuse of, ‘he did, he just hid them so we didn’t find them’ sounded a bit lame afterwards.

Oh come on now, MI5/6, the SAS, aren’t up to God knows what in the world? We tiptoe around bringing democracy, peace and love to the world? Churchill said, ‘We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm’. Of course we deny any wrong doing, so do the Russians and so does everyone else. Espionage, spies, counter subversion . . . It’s applicable to all major countries.

Yes I agree, Litvinenko was very probably an assassination, but that was never proved or admitted by any government either. David Kelly’s ‘suicide’ (the WMD’s in Iraq ‘dodgy dossier’ scientist), still throws up a lot of questions. I’m not surprised that someone like the whistle blower Snowden fears for his life. Please note that he didn’t run to other countries in the west for safety.

Our security services ‘support’ the government and the KGB ‘served’ the interests of an empire? The west also doesn’t try to destabilise regimes, gather information and side with dictators when the situation warrants it? My point is that it might be a mistake to see the west as goodies v the rest of the world as baddies and that versions of events provided by western governments and a media consolidation of CNN, Fox or the BBC aren’t the only sources available. Try Al Jazeera for instance, which doesn’t mean it’s right but gives a different perspective of events and how the ‘other side’ views things.


John. Just wondering. Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Obama administration, or the DNC?
I ask because you sound very familiar in defending those who see the U.S.A. as their enemy in any way.
I could be wrong, but you do sound more like someone who would happily defend any Socialist running for office in the USA.
I also should tell you, and others. How little I am able to trust nearly anyone who claims to be so highly informed, while pretending to be
someone like an Obama, who could, and has convinced the easily-led, and Under-informed to follow him..anywhere.

Perhaps you should read this:http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/05/25/shock-poll-81-of-al-jazeera-arabic-poll-respondents-support-isis/

[Drummond]

@ Drummond

In which case why not attack or try to remove North Korea or Zimbabwe, both dictatorships and both in need of ‘regime change’. Iraq, Syria, Libya . . . all oil producing countries, Ukraine and Afghanistan, oil pipes lines . . . Is this a coincidence?
Why not sort out all of the world's problems, with no effort or expense spared ... regardless of any other realities, like cost, logistics, manpower, not to mention (in the case of N Korea) the chance of some nukes flying around ...

I'd love to see both N Korea and Zimbabwe sorted out. You can't do everything, though.

Iraq: you forget that when Saddam's forces high-tailed it back to where they'd come from, before leaving Kuwait, they set fire to that country's oilfields, doing tremendous damage. Now, you tell me .. why on earth wouldn't forces invading Iraq suspect the booby-trapping of Iraqi oil facilities, for similar effect ?

The only really sensible answer is that oil was NOT the reason for invading, just as we were all told it wasn't.

Syria: a basket-case of a tyranny, and one that definitely possessed WMD's. What if the likes of ISIS get some ? And .. it was rumoured that Saddam shipped some of his WMD's to Syria. What if we happen to be discussing some of the very SAME WMD's .. ?

Libya: Gaddafi did the right thing with his own WMD's, which he received a lot of credit for from the West. But he ultimately turned out to be a tyrant with an iffy dress-sense, each absolutely mandating tough action ...

Afghanistan we know about. Or .. should Al Qaeda's terrorist camps have been left alone ? Cue 9/11#2, 9/11#3 ... etc ... etc ...

Ukraine: allied to the Crimea's issue of being annexed, 'Sudetenland'-style, could herald a new era of Russian expansionism, which last time around led to the Cold War and masses of nuke arsenals, each side targeting the other, threatening global radioactive slagheap(s) .. NOT anything to worry about ?


Saddam certainly had chemical weapons which he used, but you know yourself that the pretext of invasion by Blair was based on a dated Ph.D thesis that stated he might have WMD’s, not gas.

I'll give you that one. Although ... hindsight is a wonderful thing.


The excuse of, ‘he did, he just hid them so we didn’t find them’ sounded a bit lame afterwards.

To which I say this: PROVE TO ME THAT THOSE WMD'S DON'T EXIST TO THIS DAY.

Your only possible response is one of choosing not to believe in them JUST because none were found. Which actually proves nothing at all.

If I lose a pen, look everywhere I can think of, perhaps for years ... then, years later, it's found far away from where I'd looked ... DID THE PEN NOT EXIST, BECAUSE I'D NOT FOUND IT ?


Oh come on now, MI5/6, the SAS, aren’t up to God knows what in the world? We tiptoe around bringing democracy, peace and love to the world?
Churchill said, ‘We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm’. Of course we deny any wrong doing, so do the Russians and so does everyone else. Espionage, spies, counter subversion . . . It’s applicable to all major countries.
So how come that we've never heard of 'Litvinenko' cases which MI6 'had' caused to 'happen' ? Turn the tables. Why wouldn't the Soviets have made a lot of any equivalent case, had it existed ?


Yes I agree, Litvinenko was very probably an assassination, but that was never proved or admitted by any government either. David Kelly’s ‘suicide’ (the WMD’s in Iraq ‘dodgy dossier’ scientist), still throws up a lot of questions.
It does to conspiracy theorists. By total contrast, the manner of Litvinenko's death was incontrovertible.


I’m not surprised that someone like the whistle blower Snowden fears for his life. Please note that he didn’t run to other countries in the west for safety.

Why would he, when he set out to do so much harm to security issues in the West ? And did his whistle-blowing threaten nobody ?

What IS the penalty for treason, anyway ?


Our security services support the government and the KGB served the interests of an empire? The west also doesn’t try to destabilise regimes, gather information and side with dictators when the situation warrants it? My point is that it might be a mistake to see the west as goodies v the rest of the world as baddies and that versions of events provided by western governments and a media consolidation of CNN, Fox or the BBC aren’t the only sources available. Try Al Jazeera for instance, which doesn’t mean it’s right but gives a different perspective of events and how the ‘other side’ views things.

Democracy is a system which, by its nature, helps safeguard against tyrannies and despotisms. There's the difference. But you seem unfazed by any such consideration.

How come ?

[John V]

Why just not attack everybody then? My point about Blair and Iraq is that no one really questioned it in depth and the one man who tried to just happened to commit suicide.

‘PROVE TO ME THAT THOSE WMD'S DON'T EXIST TO THIS DAY’. Err, the west invaded and didn’t find them. 'Oh, he must have got rid of them because we knew he had them as Blair told us'?

Perhaps you didn’t have the pen and so never found it?
You can’t base an argument on something you can’t prove existed and say it might have, that’s ludicrous. There are certainly countries that shouldn’t have WMD’s, but you can’t just wander around the world attacking countries because you think they might have them.

Treason? Even the government sanctions whistle blowers, unless of course the whistle blowers target them. The reason we know so much now, whereas it was previously considered conspiracy theories, is because of people like Assange and Snowden.

I don’t believe what I’m told Drummond, I question, I search and I form an opinion. I certainly don’t take a government or media version of events as being unquestionable. That is what has led to the state of affairs in the west now with many cheering on diversity, multiculturalism and equality; it’s because they’ve been told to think that. My views might appear odd, but that’s because I’m out here in the world and not reliant on the Daily Mail or the BBC for my information. What do you expect, a forum of blank think a likes?

[Gunny]

@ Drummond


In which case why not attack or try to remove North Korea or Zimbabwe, both dictatorships and both in need of ‘regime change’. Iraq, Syria, Libya . . . all oil producing countries, Ukraine and Afghanistan, oil pipes lines . . . Is this a coincidence?

Red herring.


Saddam certainly had chemical weapons which he used, but you know yourself that the pretext of invasion by Blair was based on a dated Ph.D thesis that stated he might have WMD’s, not gas. The excuse of, ‘he did, he just hid them so we didn’t find them’ sounded a bit lame afterwards.

He had gas because we sold it to him and the CIA taught him to refine it.


Oh come on now, MI5/6, the SAS, aren’t up to God knows what in the world? We tiptoe around bringing democracy, peace and love to the world? Churchill said, ‘We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm’. Of course we deny any wrong doing, so do the Russians and so does everyone else. Espionage, spies, counter subversion . . . It’s applicable to all major countries.


More moral equivalency.


Yes I agree, Litvinenko was very probably an assassination, but that was never proved or admitted by any government either. David Kelly’s ‘suicide’ (the WMD’s in Iraq ‘dodgy dossier’ scientist), still throws up a lot of questions. I’m not surprised that someone like the whistle blower Snowden fears for his life. Please note that he didn’t run to other countries in the west for safety.

Our security services ‘support’ the government and the KGB ‘served’ the interests of an empire? The west also doesn’t try to destabilise regimes, gather information and side with dictators when the situation warrants it? My point is that it might be a mistake to see the west as goodies v the rest of the world as baddies and that versions of events provided by western governments and a media consolidation of CNN, Fox or the BBC aren’t the only sources available. Try Al Jazeera for instance, which doesn’t mean it’s right but gives a different perspective of events and how the ‘other side’ views things.

*yawn*

[Gunny]

Why just not attack everybody then? My point about Blair and Iraq is that no one really questioned it in depth and the one man who tried to just happened to commit suicide.

Another red herring.


‘PROVE TO ME THAT THOSE WMD'S DON'T EXIST TO THIS DAY’. Err, the west invaded and didn’t find them. 'Oh, he must have got rid of them because we knew he had them as Blair told us'?

What's to prove? We sold them to him as dual-use materiel. Kind of not hard to know he has something WE gave him.


Perhaps you didn’t have the pen and so never found it?
You can’t base an argument on something you can’t prove existed and say it might have, that’s ludicrous. There are certainly countries that shouldn’t have WMD’s, but you can’t just wander around the world attacking countries because you think they might have them.

You're basing YOUR arguments on "what if's".


Treason? Even the government sanctions whistle blowers, unless of course the whistle blowers target them. The reason we know so much now, whereas it was previously considered conspiracy theories, is because of people like Assange and Snowden.

I don’t believe what I’m told Drummond, I question, I search and I form an opinion. I certainly don’t take a government or media version of events as being unquestionable. That is what has led to the state of affairs in the west now with many cheering on diversity, multiculturalism and equality; it’s because they’ve beentold to think that. My views might appear odd, but that’s because I’m out here in the world and not reliant on the Daily Mail or the BBC for my information. What do you expect, a forum of blank think a likes?



Your views don't appear odd at all. Matter of fact, we've heard your view ad nauseum. Introducing red herrings -- things that never were -- and trying to justify some moral equivalency that clearly doesn't exist between civilized and uncivilized worlds.

[John V]

I’ll have a debate with anyone, about most things political or social. It’s no secret I find liberals and the left in general baiters, already indoctrinated and their views strange and often based on what should be and not what is – a fantasy. Likewise, I’m against an OO-RAR attitude of let’s go and bomb the world because they’re not like us. Now, if you want to debate let’s pick a topic where we can both put forward views and explanations, instead of indoctrinated ideologies, one liners and google quotes.

OK a challenge for you OO-RAR ‘aboutime’ or one liner Gunny. Social or political, (not specifically about America as I’m not American), bring it on in the debate room. You sort out the details with a moderator, no googling, no quotes, off your own head and let’s see how much you know and can explain in your own words. I’m new here, so you’ll easily win – go for it!

[Gunny]

I’ll have a debate with anyone, about most things political or social. It’s no secret I find liberals and the left in general baiters, already indoctrinated and their views strange and often based on what should be and not what is – a fantasy. Likewise, I’m against an OO-RAR attitude of let’s go and bomb the world because they’re not like us. Now, if you want to debate let’s pick a topic where we can both put forward views and explanations, instead of indoctrinated ideologies, one liners and google quotes.

OK a challenge for you OO-RAR ‘aboutime’. Social or political, (not specifically about America as I’m not American), bring it on in the debate room. You sort out the details with a moderator, no googling, no quotes, off your own head and let’s see how much you know and can explain in your own words. I’m new here, so you’ll easily win – go for it!



The topic's fine. Your assumptions are NOT. I never said a word about bombing the world. I said a word about not letting evil triumph. And DO spare me your moral equivalency argument about "evil". It's obvious for what it is.

I also might mention that I don't use google nor a bunch of cut-n-paste crap to make any of my arguments. I can think for myself.

[Abbey Marie]

Sorry if I speak "strange", or with mistakes. Its unusual to me to speak on english so much. :3
__

BTW, if you want to communicate, you can add me in skype.

My daughter took Russian in college. I think she would be thrilled to write in Russian as well as you do in English.

I think that we can all learn a lot from you about Russian matters.
:beer:

[Polite Russian]

My daughter took Russian in college. I think she would be thrilled to write in Russian as well as you do in English.

I think that we can all learn a lot from you about Russian matters.
:beer:


If if you want to, you can ask about something :beer:
And if your daughter will need some help with russian - I think I can help :)


btw. How many places in the usa, where you can learn russian?

[John V]

The topic's fine. Your assumptions are NOT. I never said a word about bombing the world. I said a word about not letting evil triumph. And DO spare me your moral equivalency argument about "evil". It's obvious for what it is.

I also might mention that I don't use google nor a bunch of cut-n-paste crap to make any of my arguments. I can think for myself.

Come on then, Social Science teacher v armchair indoctrinated left (fantasy)/right (OO-RAR) BS.
Let’s see what you’ve got in your heads instead of being abusive to the Russian and criticising what I’ve written without having to say anything yourselves.


Deep breath and calm down. Most of you have probably never even been outside America, except to invade someone else. Most of you will go for what CNN or Fox tell you, because they’re working from a political agenda that many of you have bought into. You know the three questions I get asked on teacher interviews by Americans and I’m serious: Have you got a McDonalds here; how can I phone my Mum and why doesn’t anyone speak English.
You’ve now got someone who lives in Thailand, works in China and a youngster who’s Russian. International perspectives that take some getting used to, just as I had to adapt to them. Now if you don’t want them, say so and stay safe in your western comfort zone, but then don’t be surprised at what’s going on around you.

[Balu]

I was lucky to come across with your forum and would be happy to join you to chat, if you've nothing against. http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/blush2.gif

[Polite Russian]

I was lucky to come across with your forum and would be happy to join you to chat, if you've nothing against. http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/blush2.gif

good day, friend. / добрый день друже )

[revelarts]

hi to all the new folks

[Balu]

good day, friend. / добрый день друже )
Hi! (Рад тебя видеть! Ты меня очень приятно удивил своим хорошм английским. http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/good.gif )

[Polite Russian]

Hi! (Рад тебя видеть! Ты меня очень приятно удивил своим хорошм английским. http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/good.gif )

Стараемся. Ладно, давай сильно тут по риски не говорить. Не вежливо это на иностранном форуме. :)

Sorry about russian, guys.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Стараемся. Ладно, давай сильно тут по риски не говорить. Не вежливо это на иностранном форуме. :)

Sorry about russian, guys.



Hayaan ignore lang ang karamihan at magsalita ng kahit na ano po kami dito. Matapos ang lahat ng mga walang dahilan upang gamitin ang pm system upang gawin iyon ay may? -Tyr

[Kathianne]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?3487-Debate-Policy-Rules


Language - Signatures and Posts will be in the English language. Posts will not be in foreign languages where others cannot understand.

[revelarts]

No offence, but it sounds like paranoia.

Soviet Union... Damn, so many Americans think, that Russia is tha same country as the Soviet Union (I hate ussr btw).

It's my sense that many on the right in the U.S. have a bit of a Spartans mentality- basically believing that there's always some monster at the door to eat us all alive if we don't fight.
MacArther warn us against that mindset, so did Eisenhower and others
and 1st of all John Q. Adams
"<dl style="color: rgb(69, 69, 69); font-family: 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; line-height: 19.200000762939453px;"><dt style="font-size: 18px;">America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own."

</dt></dl>After the fall of the U.S.S.R. there should have been a HUGE peace dividend coming but we just switched to FAR smaller monsters and HYPED THEM TO DEATH.
while a real danger Terrorist on Dialysis in caves are NOT a million man army changing gov'ts around the world and pointing 10,000 nukes at the U.S.. Saddam Hussein couldn't even shoot down U.S. planes over HIS OWN air space. N. Korea, has airbrushed navy ships. Iran only has a hand full of planes and ships and have never fought a war outside the region or EVER taken any lands. And Russia who NATO has Completely ENCIRCLED but somehow the west is in FAUX FEAR because Russia is EXPANDING! Putin is a tough guy Aaaaaa!
all OVER HYPED BS BS BS.
China is the only nation that we'd need fear at this point IMO(if fear is what we want to do). But not so much militarily as economically.
You know the saying, 'whoever who controls the money in the house controls the house.'
Bullies can run the show with force for a while but if you can't pay the soldiers what have you got? ra ra OH-rah, HO-RAH and patriotism work fine as long as soldiers are getting their checks, ammo and food wherever they're deployed. if not. what have you got?

Polite Russian I'd be interested to know what the "soviet" troops felt like when they came home from the former soviet block and communist countries. I suspect some were hyper nationalist who felt let down and were still ready to fight but probably more were pissed at the gov't and generally pissed.

[Balu]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?3487-Debate-Policy-Rules
I beg your pardon. :(

Translation: "I'm glad to see you here. I'm really fascinated by your English. http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/good.gif"

Do trust me. The same will never occur. http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/blush2.gif

[NightTrain]

I beg your pardon. :(

Translation: "I'm glad to see you here. I'm really fascinated by your English. http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/good.gif"

Do trust me. The same will never occur. http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/blush2.gif


No worries. Kathi was just gently pointing out a rule.

So, Balu, where are you from and what do you think of the events in Crimea and Ukraine?

[NightTrain]

btw. How many places in the usa, where you can learn russian?


Where I live there is a large number of Russians who chose to remain here when the USA purchased Alaska from Russia back in 1867. Some of them still live in their own communities and are practicing Russian Orthodox. Their churches are beautiful.

The others have somewhat assimilated into American culture, but still hold many orthodox values, such as long beards and silk shirts for the men and all women have silk head coverings and silk dresses when in public.

Most Alaskan schools offer classes in Russian, and my 12 year old son is planning on taking a few classes in it starting next school year.

[Polite Russian]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?3487-Debate-Policy-Rules

sorry. Translation:
Doing my best. Ok, let's do not use russian here. That's rude :)

[Kathianne]

No worries. Kathi was just gently pointing out a rule.

So, Balu, where are you from and what do you think of the events in Crimea and Ukraine?
Indeed, not the only one doing so either.

We know most folks don't come and read all the rules. ;)

[Balu]

...Polite Russian I'd be interested to know what the "soviet" troops felt like when they came home from the former soviet block and communist countries. I suspect some were hyper nationalist who felt let down and were still ready to fight but probably more were pissed at the gov't and generally pissed.
Sorry for my interposing, but I think, that I can answer your question much better, as а Polite Russian is too young to reply, as he is only 20 y.o. i.e. he had not been born by the time the troops returned back home.
They had double feeling - "East or West home I best" and a great offence to find themselves "overboard", as that very time there was no need o them and the State was unable to take care of them.
You see, I remember it myself, as I have already been living for a long time and even remember the first launch of our Spunik 10.04.57. and happened o visit the firs American Exhibition in Moscow in 1959. :)

[John V]

It's my sense that many on the right in the U.S. have a bit of a Spartans mentality- basically believing that there's always some monster at the door to eat us all alive if we don't fight.
MacArther warn us against that mindset, so did Eisenhower and others
and 1st of all John Q. Adams
"<dl style='color: rgb(69, 69, 69); line-height: 19.2px; font-family: "Times New Roman", Times, serif;'><dt style="font-size: 18px;">America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own."

</dt></dl>After the fall of the U.S.S.R. there should have been a HUGE peace dividend coming but we just switched to FAR smaller monsters and HYPED THEM TO DEATH.
while a real danger Terrorist on Dialysis in caves are NOT a million man army changing gov'ts around the world and pointing 10,000 nukes at the U.S.. Saddam Hussein couldn't even shoot down U.S. planes over HIS OWN air space. N. Korea, has airbrushed navy ships. Iran only has a hand full of planes and ships and have never fought a war outside the region or EVER taken any lands. And Russia who NATO has Completely ENCIRCLED but somehow the west is in FAUX FEAR because Russia is EXPANDING! Putin is a tough guy Aaaaaa!
all OVER HYPED BS BS BS.
China is the only nation that we'd need fear at this point IMO(if fear is what we want to do). But not so much militarily as economically.
You know the saying, 'whoever who controls the money in the house controls the house.'
Bullies can run the show with force for a while but if you can't pay the soldiers what have you got? ra ra OH-rah, HO-RAH and patriotism work fine as long as soldiers are getting their checks, ammo and food wherever they're deployed. if not. what have you got?

Polite Russian I'd be interested to know what the "soviet" troops felt like when they came home from the former soviet block and communist countries. I suspect some were hyper nationalist who felt let down and were still ready to fight but probably more were pissed at the gov't and generally pissed.

Yes, spot on.
According to estimates, the U.S. currently owes China between 1 and 2.8 trillion. Whichever is the true figure or anywhere in between, the Chinese don’t want war, they’re buying up the west for generations to come.

I’ll take the usual flack here, but here’s something to ponder.



The problem, if you can call it that with America, is its isolation. You live in a country that has everything. You want to go skiing in the north, sunbathe in the south, huge expanse of farmland in the mid-west or live in the ‘Big Apple’ – it’s all there and you never have to leave. Previously, controlled immigration also allowed assimilation and so you get this self-imposed isolationist view of the U.S. v the rest of the world. You grow up with a choice of left v right internal media propaganda and anyone who doesn’t agree is anti-American and needs a dose of ‘regime change’ or ‘limited air strikes.’ Revelarts is correct, take away the military power and your cities look like third world ghettos – like those in Europe that went down the same Obama path.


That’s not anti-American, it’s how the rest of the world see you and even your own population are now fighting each other over left and right ideologies. It’s a bitter pill to swallow, Russia also had to swallow it in 1989 when it collapsed and eventually it’s something you’re going to have to get used to and come out and talk to the world.

[Balu]

No worries. Kathi was just gently pointing out a rule.

So, Balu, where are you from and what do you think of the events in Crimea and Ukraine?
Well. Ok!
I was born in Moscow? where I still live now. But in the summer-autumn season I us to spend in my private flat in he South of Nizhny Novgorod region - 400 miles from Moscow. There is very picturesque places near famous Pushkin's Boldino.
A to Crimea, first - this is historically Russian terrain where the majority are Russians, who where derived from speaking their own native Russian which now in Ukraine has a status of a foreign language as English, French, German etc.
After an armed coup in Kiev after which there were no longer legislative State authorities I Ukraine, the only remaining legislative Parliament of Republic of Crimea held a referendum. The reslt was that over 96% voted for reunion wit Russia

[revelarts]

Yes, spot on.
According to estimates, the U.S. currently owes China between 1 and 2.8 trillion. Whichever is the true figure or anywhere in between, the Chinese don’t want war, they’re buying up the west for generations to come.

I’ll take the usual flack here, but here’s something to ponder.



The problem, if you can call it that with America, is its isolation. You live in a country that has everything. You want to go skiing in the north, sunbathe in the south, huge expanse of farmland in the mid-west or live in the ‘Big Apple’ – it’s all there and you never have to leave. Previously, controlled immigration also allowed assimilation and so you get this self-imposed isolationist view of the U.S. v the rest of the world. You grow up with a choice of left v right internal media propaganda and anyone who doesn’t agree is anti-American and needs a dose of ‘regime change’ or ‘limited air strikes.’ Revelarts is correct, take away the military power and your cities look like third world ghettos – like those in Europe that went down the same Obama path.


That’s not anti-American, it’s how the rest of the world see you and even your own population are now fighting each other over left and right ideologies. It’s a bitter pill to swallow, Russia also had to swallow it in 1989 when it collapsed and eventually it’s something you’re going to have to get used to and come out and talk to the world.



I get where your coming from here.
I hope it never comes to that but we're WELL on that road.

I have to say though. It's odd how various people use the word "isolation" . Kathianne and others have accused me and some politicians of being isolationist because i want far less U.S. military scattered and acting around the world. But they fail to acknowledge that i have ZERO problem with international trade at extreme levels and foreign contacts in every other way.
To them Isolationist mean not trying to control world events with the U.S. military.
To you it seem ... well I wouldn't call what you describe as isolation i think a better word is Provincial. To me it seems many americans LOVE to have Armies, ships and planes all over the world meddling in others affairs, creating wars to make sure the U.S. has access to foreign resources....I mean FREEDOMCough... But we don't really want to think about other countries culturally or their aspirations as nations or desires for freedom on their own terms. We seem to prefer to keep other countries under control or at bay 'thank you very much'. Our politicians like to keep us fighting over false choices on foreign policy and don't allow thought of countries doing their own things. that's to "dangerous". "either your with us or against us" "with us" meaning you foreigners do pretty much what the US UK politicians and power brokers tell you to... or else.

We're not isolationist. no military in the history of the world has been more widely deployed as the United States.
Currently, the United States has military personnel deployed in about 150 Countries... This covers 75% of The World's Nations.
We don't need that and can't afford it.

We're imperialist by any objective standard. But we aren't as cosmopolitan about it as the british were, who actually had much more world cultural experience. While keeping an amazing air of superiority so as not to let all of their cultural contact it wash off on them. tut tut.

Americans EXPORT our cultural and just sample others around the edges.

[revelarts]

Sorry for my interposing, but I think, that I can answer your question much better, as а Polite Russian is too young to reply, as he is only 20 y.o. i.e. he had not been born by the time the troops returned back home.
They had double feeling - "East or West home I best" and a great offence to find themselves "overboard", as that very time there was no need o them and the State was unable to take care of them.
You see, I remember it myself, as I have already been living for a long time and even remember the first launch of our Spunik 10.04.57. and happened o visit the firs American Exhibition in Moscow in 1959. :)

ok,
So it was "it's good to be Home. But sad and mad to be dumped on the streets without work or support."?

please jump in anytime Balu.

[NightTrain]

Well. Ok!
I was born in Moscow? where I still live now. But in the summer-autumn season I us to spend in my private flat in he South of Nizhny Novgorod region - 400 miles from Moscow. There is very picturesque places near famous Pushkin's Boldino.
A to Crimea, first - this is historically Russian terrain where the majority are Russians, who where derived from speaking their own native Russian which now in Ukraine has a status of a foreign language as English, French, German etc.
After an armed coup in Kiev after which there were no longer legislative State authorities I Ukraine, the only remaining legislative Parliament of Republic of Crimea held a referendum. The reslt was that over 96% voted for reunion wit Russia


Yeah, it was almost a 97% 'yes' vote to join Russia... and that kind of number screams vote fraud.

About the only vote that can achieve a 97% public consensus on an issue would be something along the lines of "Do you wish to continue living?"... Saddam pulled off a "vote" like that, but there were armed guards supervising the voters in the booths and then the results were announced from his government.

When the results came in from the Crimea vote, didn't anyone question those impossible numbers?

There is just no way that 97% of Crimeans voted to be annexed back to Russia. Just 80% would have been impressive, but almost 100%? No way.

[Balu]

Yeah, it was almost a 97% 'yes' vote to join Russia... and that kind of number screams vote fraud.

About the only vote that can achieve a 97% public consensus on an issue would be something along the lines of "Do you wish to continue living?"... Saddam pulled off a "vote" like that, but there were armed guards supervising the voters in the booths and then the results were announced from his government.

When the results came in from the Crimea vote, didn't anyone question those impossible numbers?

There is just no way that 97% of Crimeans voted to be annexed back to Russia. Just 80% would have been impressive, but almost 100%? No way.
Let us count. 81% participated, 97% voted "pro", Nazi illegitimate regime -junta is in Kiev, the majority of the population is Russians... in these circumstances the results are more than explainable.

[Drummond]

Come on then, Social Science teacher v armchair indoctrinated left (fantasy)/right (OO-RAR) BS.
Let’s see what you’ve got in your heads instead of being abusive to the Russian and criticising what I’ve written without having to say anything yourselves.


Deep breath and calm down. Most of you have probably never even been outside America, except to invade someone else. Most of you will go for what CNN or Fox tell you, because they’re working from a political agenda that many of you have bought into. You know the three questions I get asked on teacher interviews by Americans and I’m serious: Have you got a McDonalds here; how can I phone my Mum and why doesn’t anyone speak English.
You’ve now got someone who lives in Thailand, works in China and a youngster who’s Russian. International perspectives that take some getting used to, just as I had to adapt to them. Now if you don’t want them, say so and stay safe in your western comfort zone, but then don’t be surprised at what’s going on around you.


As a fellow Brit, I'm aware of the type of media coverage the British are subjected to on a continual basis. And forgive me, but I see signs of your own adherence to the biases transmitted to us.

Your 'it's all about the oil' is one such ... i've lost count of debates I've heard over here in my part of the world, claiming that Americans are only chiefly interested in invasions because of what they can grab from it.

Another is a British rejection of perceived 'jingoism', which is obviously how you see Americans reacting to the world stage. Very British in its biases.

I personally reject both of these. Americans are more patriotic, more centred on values concerning freedoms and liberties .. and they put plenty into their efforts to back that, VERY laudibly. For myself, I say that SHOULD command our not inconsiderable respect, not least because the British lack a lot of this in their own temperaments !!

[fj1200]

Yes, spot on.
According to estimates, the U.S. currently owes China between 1 and 2.8 trillion. Whichever is the true figure or anywhere in between, the Chinese don’t want war, they’re buying up the west for generations to come.

The last I checked the figure was the same for Japan as China. I don't think they want war either, globalization is nothing to be scared of, our complacency is.

[fj1200]

We're imperialist by any objective standard.

I disagree. We don't seek to conquer or rule. We do think we need to be the world's police force though.

[Gunny]

Come on then, Social Science teacher v armchair indoctrinated left (fantasy)/right (OO-RAR) BS.
Let’s see what you’ve got in your heads instead of being abusive to the Russian and criticising what I’ve written without having to say anything yourselves.


Deep breath and calm down. Most of you have probably never even been outside America, except to invade someone else. Most of you will go for what CNN or Fox tell you, because they’re working from a political agenda that many of you have bought into. You know the three questions I get asked on teacher interviews by Americans and I’m serious: Have you got a McDonalds here; how can I phone my Mum and why doesn’t anyone speak English.
You’ve now got someone who lives in Thailand, works in China and a youngster who’s Russian. International perspectives that take some getting used to, just as I had to adapt to them. Now if you don’t want them, say so and stay safe in your western comfort zone, but then don’t be surprised at what’s going on around you.


Social science teacher WHERE? The only socialist indoctrinated person between you and I is YOU. Seems to me, it's more likely an idealistic, social science teacher would be more well acquainted with an armchair than a 21 year Marine Corps vet.

I have no problem with international perspectives, and in fact, have been to all of the places you list but Russia.

Having said that, how about YOU remember where YOU are? This is an American board with Americans on it who understand politics. You don't just come in here labeling us by YOUR beliefs. Your idea of right wing in the UK is a moderate leftwinger here.

Oh, and you haven't brought up one idea that I see. All you've done so far is try to tell us who and what we are when you haven't the slightest clue.

[Little-Acorn]

and the State was unable to take care of them.


There is a major conflict over this issue going on in this country (U.S.).

Some people ("liberals" (a misnomer) or "progressives") think that the state should "take care of us".

Other people ("conservatives", a misnomer) think that we have the responsibility to take care of ourselves and help our neighbors ourselves, and that the state's only purpose is to keep others from interfering (criminals, overreaching government etc.).

The country was founded with the latter in mind, as is clear from its founding documents. Some people are trying to move the country back to the former.

[Balu]

There is a major conflict over this issue going on in this country (U.S.).

Some people ("liberals" (a misnomer) or "progressives") think that the state should "take care of us".

Other people ("conservatives", a misnomer) think that we have the responsibility to take care of ourselves and help our neighbors ourselves, and that the state's only purpose is to keep others from interfering (criminals, overreaching government etc.).

The country was founded with the latter in mind, as is clear from its founding documents. Some people are trying to move the country back to the former.

I spoke about the other thing in this very particular case. I spoke abut the returning home soviet servicemen, whom the State was unable to provide with all the necessary things any Sate is obligated to. This is the point.

[Gunny]

I spoke about the other thing in this very particular case. I spoke abut the returning home soviet servicemen, whom the State was unable to provide with all the necessary things any Sate is obligated to. This is the point.

Are you using a translator? You are missing HIS point.

I DO see your point in regard to servicemen.

His point is broader in scheme and takes in the entire society. People who believe the government should take care of them versus people who think they should take care of themselves, and be left alone by the government.

[Balu]

Are you using a translator? You are missing HIS point.

I DO see your point in regard to servicemen.

His point is broader in scheme and takes in the entire society. People who believe the government should take care of them versus people who think they should take care of themselves, and be left alone by the government.
I've gotta what meant. I just wanted to clarify the idea of my post.
As to translator, I never use them. I am from the passed century where we had not been accustomed to do this.
Here I'm trying to refresh my English, so, sorry for my further mistakes which may occur. :(

[Gunny]

I've gotta what meant. I just wanted to clarify the idea of my post.
As to translator, I never use them. I am from the passed century where we had not been accustomed to do this.
Here I'm trying to refresh my English, so, sorry for my further mistakes which may occur. :(

You said the results were more than explainable, but didn't explain. The majority of Americans are conservative yet we have Obama for a President.

[revelarts]

I disagree. We don't seek to conquer or rule. We do think we need to be the world's police force though.

well shining a dark light on it
do you mean not conquering or ruling like in Iraq or Libya or Panama or El Salvador or Iran when we deposed Mosaddeq and put in the Shaw. Afghanistan when we supported the Taliban to beat on the U.S.S.R. then attacked the Tailiban when they didn't do what we wanted?

And are you including covert control via International Biz and agreements favorable to U.S. biz and if not we act as if the gov't is criminal and must be harassed like in the case of Chaveza and others?

I said objective standard not just by an overt old school model.

[aboutime]

Yes, spot on.
According to estimates, the U.S. currently owes China between 1 and 2.8 trillion. Whichever is the true figure or anywhere in between, the Chinese don’t want war, they’re buying up the west for generations to come.

I’ll take the usual flack here, but here’s something to ponder.



The problem, if you can call it that with America, is its isolation. You live in a country that has everything. You want to go skiing in the north, sunbathe in the south, huge expanse of farmland in the mid-west or live in the ‘Big Apple’ – it’s all there and you never have to leave. Previously, controlled immigration also allowed assimilation and so you get this self-imposed isolationist view of the U.S. v the rest of the world. You grow up with a choice of left v right internal media propaganda and anyone who doesn’t agree is anti-American and needs a dose of ‘regime change’ or ‘limited air strikes.’ Revelarts is correct, take away the military power and your cities look like third world ghettos – like those in Europe that went down the same Obama path.


That’s not anti-American, it’s how the rest of the world see you and even your own population are now fighting each other over left and right ideologies. It’s a bitter pill to swallow, Russia also had to swallow it in 1989 when it collapsed and eventually it’s something you’re going to have to get used to and come out and talk to the world.





John. Now I understand you. We should actually, and simply address you as Mr. Lenin, or would you prefer Marx?

You actually sound like an untrained, dedicated, Propaganda plant. Assigned to pretend you actually understand what Real Freedom means in order to infiltrate, and eventually betray anyone who falls for your false trustworthiness.
As for how the rest of the World see's us. How PUTIN of you?

[Gunny]

well shining a dark light on it
do you mean not conquering or ruling like in Iraq or Libya or Panama or El Salvador or Iran when we deposed Mosaddeq and put in the Shaw. Afghanistan when we supported the Taliban to beat on the U.S.S.R. then attacked the Tailiban when they didn't do what we wanted?

And are you including covert control via International Biz and agreements favorable to U.S. biz and if not we act as if the gov't is criminal and must be harassed like in the case of Chaveza and others?

I said objective standard not just by an overt old school model.

Really? We never ruled Iraq, Libya nor Panama. We didn't depose anyone and put in the SHAH (not Shaw) of Iran. He playe political ball with us and we supported him. Why not?

We supported the muhajadeen in Afghanistan -- freedon fighters -- not the Taliban.

I'm including you twisting situations to suit your arguments. You are just out there.

[Balu]

Zou said the results were more than explainable, but didn't explain. The majority of Americans are conservative yet we have Obama for a President.
I've no intention to convince anybody. I've just tried to do my best to place a real situation in front of you, as your CNN shows you that there are palms in Moscow among which there are demonstrations for democracy. :)
We have CNN on our TV, so I really enjoyed that picture. :)

[John V]

I’m just agreeing with one of your fellow Americans, Revelarts and asking you to consider new perspectives with an open mind as he did, instead of a closed mind. You’re not the only country to have suffered from an insular and myopic outlook.


Look back at the revolution and what springs to mind when you think of the British Empire? Haughty, arrogant, controlling and what did they do in a rebellion? Send in the army. It happened over nearly a third of the world, ‘damn foreigners, they’re not like us’ and out they went to subdue. The French, Dutch (who still had apartheid until fairly recently in South Africa) . . . Many countries suffered from ‘exceptionalism’. In my lifetime I remember black golliwogs on jars of jam and signs in rented buildings stating, ‘No blacks, Irish or pets’. The older ones amongst you can still remember segregation in America itself. This isn’t communism and ‘reds under the beds’, this is basic history.

Many have the same attitude now as England had just a century ago; if they’re not one of us and you can’t control them, kill them. They’re dangerous, a threat, they’re going to invade us . . . The end days of British rule is what you’re now experiencing with the backlash of terrorism and the bigger countries themselves drawing red lines, it’s just that many of you with closed ideological mind-set can’t see it or have difficulty accepting it.

[revelarts]

I’m just agreeing with one of your fellow Americans, Revelarts ...


oops um ... agreeing with me is not going to get you any points with this crowd on 3 out of 5 subjects John. sorry buddy.
stick with the facts. they won't like it but at least they'll have to just go into denials of reality in areas they don't agree with you on.

i appreciate it though.

[Trigg]

Welcome to our Russian visitors. My sister lives in Finland and has visited Moscow, it's a beautiful city.

I see that this thread has gone on for 10 pages and I don't feel like delving into whatever off topic conversation this has turned into. I hope you enjoy the back and forth debates that go on here.

[Drummond]

Well. Ok!
I was born in Moscow? where I still live now. But in the summer-autumn season I us to spend in my private flat in he South of Nizhny Novgorod region - 400 miles from Moscow. There is very picturesque places near famous Pushkin's Boldino.
A to Crimea, first - this is historically Russian terrain where the majority are Russians, who where derived from speaking their own native Russian which now in Ukraine has a status of a foreign language as English, French, German etc.
After an armed coup in Kiev after which there were no longer legislative State authorities I Ukraine, the only remaining legislative Parliament of Republic of Crimea held a referendum. The reslt was that over 96% voted for reunion wit Russia

Welcome to this forum. I hope you enjoy your time here.

As you're here, and at an opportune time .. can I ask you a question which your comrade has been asked, but without answering as yet ?

Can you tell us how the ordinary Russian citizen views the sanctions currently being applied against Russia ? What do you understand of the reason for them being applied ?

[revelarts]

I've gotta what meant. I just wanted to clarify the idea of my post.
As to translator, I never use them. I am from the passed century where we had not been accustomed to do this.
Here I'm trying to refresh my English, so, sorry for my further mistakes which may occur. :(


Your English is FAR better than our Non-existent Russian. :clap:
Many here, including myself, need to improve our English.
Thanks for reaching out and chatting. :beer:

[John V]

oops um ... agreeing with me is not going to get you any points with this crowd on 3 out of 5 subjects John. sorry buddy.
stick with the facts. they won't like it but at least they'll have to just go into denials of reality in areas they don't agree with you on.

i appreciate it though.

Oh, I’m too old to need brownie points, (60). :laugh: I, like most kids of my generation also did years of the OO-RAR stuff in Northern Ireland and with the BAOR in Germany and bought into all the ‘Protect and Serve’ stuff even though the UK mainland hasn’t been invaded since 1066. I know it’s very difficult to change ingrained lifetime attitudes, but hopefully it will provide explanations. That having been said, this UK citizen is now getting ready to lecture Chinese students, who will give me the same views on Chinese exceptionalism as Americans do on theirs.


As one student asked me last semester, ‘Why can’t you speak Chinese?’ to which I replied, ‘Because I’m English.’ He thought for a moment and then said, ’Doesn’t everyone in England speak Chinese?’ Or the Chinese political lecturer who used the word ‘politic’ instead of the plural ‘politics’. When I reminded him of the plural, he said, ‘No, there’s only one politic, communism.’ Different place with the same indoctrinated mind-set. http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/icons/icon7.png

[Drummond]

Let us count. 81% participated, 97% voted "pro", Nazi illegitimate regime -junta is in Kiev, the majority of the population is Russians... in these circumstances the results are more than explainable.

But are you aware of the perceived illegality of that Referendum ? Perhaps Russian media hasn't informed you of how the rest of the world sees this ?

See...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26776416


The UN General Assembly has approved a resolution describing the Moscow-backed referendum that led to Russia's annexation of Crimea as illegal.It comes after the International Monetary Fund (IMF) agreed to a loan deal with Ukraine worth $14-18bn.

The US Congress also passed legislation on Thursday backing a $1bn loan guarantee for Ukraine.

Tensions are high between Russia and the West after pro-Russian troops annexed Ukraine's southern peninsula.

The West has widely condemned the move, with US President Barack Obama warning on Wednesday of "deeper" EU and US sanctions against Russia if it carried out further incursions in Ukraine.

One hundred countries voted in favour of approving a UN General Assembly resolution declaring the Crimean referendum on 16 March illegal and affirming Ukraine's territorial integrity. Eleven nations voted against, with 58 abstentions.

"This support has come from all corners of the world which shows that this (is) not only a regional matter but a global one,'' Ukraine's Foreign Minister Andriy Deshchytsia told reporters after the vote.

But Russia's ambassador to the UN, Vitaly Churkin, said "the fact that almost half" of the UN General Assembly members had not supported the resolution was "a very encouraging trend and I think this trend will become stronger and stronger".

Given that the resolution was non-binding, the vote was largely symbolic, says the BBC's Nick Bryant in New York.

But Ukraine hopes the resolution will act as a deterrent and dissuade Moscow from making further incursions into its territory, he adds.

To me, this is a parallel with Hitler's annexation of the Sudetenland. Hitler went on to annexe other territories, ultimately taking over much of Europe.

What if Putin dreams of doing something comparable, as a means of trying to create a new version of the Soviet Empire ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31528981


There is a "real and present danger" of Russia trying to destabilise the Baltic states of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, the UK defence secretary says.

Michael Fallon said he was worried about "pressure" from Russian President Vladimir Putin on the ex-Soviet states, which are Nato members.

Russia might use tactics there similar to those it used in Ukraine, he said.

Shadow foreign secretary Douglas Alexander told the BBC he too had "very real concerns" about the situation.

Mr Fallon's comments came after PM David Cameron called on Europe to tell Russia it faced economic and financial consequences for "many years to come" if it did not stop destabilising Ukraine. Meanwhile, the Ministry of Defence has said RAF jets were scrambled on Wednesday after two Russian military aircraft were seen off the Cornwall coast.

Speaking to journalists from the Times and Daily Telegraph during a flight to Sierra Leone, where British troops are helping tackle the Ebola outbreak, Mr Fallon said: "I'm worried about Putin.

"I'm worried about his pressure on the Baltics, the way he is testing Nato."

He said Nato must be prepared for aggression from Russia "in whatever form it takes" - because Russia was likely to use covert tactics such as those he said it had used to annex Crimea and during the current Ukraine conflict.

Do you see how Putin is causing us in the West such concerns ? We want to know when - or, IF - he will stop. As matters stand, we are seeing sign after sign of increased belligerence from Russia ... the testing of UK borders by Russian aircraft is reminiscent of what Russia regularly did during the Cold War.

[revelarts]

Really? We never ruled Iraq, Libya nor Panama. We didn't depose anyone and put in the SHAH (not Shaw) of Iran. He playe political ball with us and we supported him. Why not?
We supported the muhajadeen in Afghanistan -- freedon fighters -- not the Taliban.
I'm including you twisting situations to suit your arguments. You are just out there.

imperialism
<header class="luna-data-header" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-family: Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; line-height: 22px;">1.the policy of extending the rule or authority of an empire or nation over foreign countries, or of acquiring and holding colonies and dependencies.</header>
2.advocacy of imperial or sovereign interests over the interests of the dependent states.

3.imperial government; rule by an emperor or empress.

4.an imperial system of government.

5.British. the policy of so uniting the separate parts of an empire with separate governments as to secure for certain purposes a single state.

Concerning Iraq, Libya, Taliban,
We set Attacked Iraq, put in rulers, 1st an American. Made it dependent on us militarily and otherwise and half left... but pipelines are secure.
We attacked Libya overthrew it's leader, TRYED to put in freindlys but couldn't.
I'll admit the Taliban and mujahedeen "freedom fighters" are different but U.S. officials worked with each while convenient then didn't.
You got the spelling of Shah right but the history wrong, CIA admits it at this point Gunny.

[Drummond]

I’m just agreeing with one of your fellow Americans, Revelarts and asking you to consider new perspectives with an open mind as he did, instead of a closed mind. You’re not the only country to have suffered from an insular and myopic outlook.


Look back at the revolution and what springs to mind when you think of the British Empire? Haughty, arrogant, controlling and what did they do in a rebellion? Send in the army. It happened over nearly a third of the world, ‘damn foreigners, they’re not like us’ and out they went to subdue. The French, Dutch (who still had apartheid until fairly recently in South Africa) . . . Many countries suffered from ‘exceptionalism’. In my lifetime I remember black golliwogs on jars of jam and signs in rented buildings stating, ‘No blacks, Irish or pets’. The older ones amongst you can still remember segregation in America itself. This isn’t communism and ‘reds under the beds’, this is basic history.

Many have the same attitude now as England had just a century ago; if they’re not one of us and you can’t control them, kill them. They’re dangerous, a threat, they’re going to invade us . . . The end days of British rule is what you’re now experiencing with the backlash of terrorism and the bigger countries themselves drawing red lines, it’s just that many of you with closed ideological mind-set can’t see it or have difficulty accepting it.



I think you're making the classic mistake of projecting your attitudes which have their roots from one cause, upon something else which is only superficially similar (if, indeed, it is !).

So, you're anti the old British Empire. Fair enough .. I've no great regard for those days, either (to the extent I ever think about them, or consider them remotely relevant to modern times). But much of what America has faced is markedly outside of the British experience.

You said it yourself, with the technically correct statement about the British mainland not having been invaded since 1066. [Quite right ... the Channel Islands aren't part of 'the British mainland', but they WERE occupied by the Germans during WWII ....]

But consider 9/11 and the great trauma following. It wasn't an invasion, but it WAS a violation, an especially shocking, savage, disgustingly subhuman attack on innocent civilians, perpetrated on the soil of an especially proud and patriotic People.

The War on Terror was the only reasonable response, fighting not just for a comeback against America having been attacked, but for the peace and security of the Western world.

Projecting your distaste for Empirical jingoism is NOT an appropriate message for a people defending civilised values in the face of bloodthirsty savagery.

That terrorism is not something America either earned or deserved. But it has every right to respond to it with effectiveness, pride, integrity. Your identifiably British hangups over the aftermath of our own long-since dead Empire, I suggest, have no place in any of that.


imperialism
<header class="luna-data-header" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-family: Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; line-height: 22px;">1.the policy of extending the rule or authority of an empire or nation over foreign countries, or of acquiring and holding colonies and dependencies.</header>
2.advocacy of imperial or sovereign interests over the interests of the dependent states.

3.imperial government; rule by an emperor or empress.

4.an imperial system of government.

5.British. the policy of so uniting the separate parts of an empire with separate governments as to secure for certain purposes a single state.

Concerning Iraq, Libya, Taliban,
We set Attacked Iraq, put in rulers, 1st an American. Made it dependent on us militarily and otherwise and half left... but pipelines are secure.
We attacked Libya overthrew it's leader, TRYED to put in freindlys but couldn't.
I'll admit the Taliban and mujahedeen "freedom fighters" are different but U.S. officials worked with each while convenient then didn't.
You got the spelling of Shah right but the history wrong, CIA admits it at this point Gunny.

Strange that you omit the most glaringly obvious tie-in to all of the above. Particularly since it's so completely crucial to applying relevant context to any of it.

One word isn't mentioned at all. Very strangely.

Namely ...

TERRORISM.

HAD YOU FORGOTTEN ABOUT IT ? HAD ITS RELEVANCE SOMEHOW SLIPPED YOUR MEMORY ?

Sorry, but your rejigging of context for ALL of the above, Revelarts, just isn't working for me.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?3487-Debate-Policy-Rules

Pretty much is what I posted in Tagalog, one of the many Filipino dialects...:laugh:--Tyr

[revelarts]

Oh, I’m too old to need brownie points, (60). :laugh: I, like most kids of my generation also did years of the OO-RAR stuff in Northern Ireland and with the BAOR in Germany and bought into all the ‘Protect and Serve’ stuff even though the UK mainland hasn’t been invaded since 1066. I know it’s very difficult to change ingrained lifetime attitudes, but hopefully it will provide explanations. That having been said, this UK citizen is now getting ready to lecture Chinese students, who will give me the same views on Chinese exceptionalism as Americans do on theirs.


As one student asked me last semester, ‘Why can’t you speak Chinese?’ to which I replied, ‘Because I’m English.’ He thought for a moment and then said, ’Doesn’t everyone in England speak Chinese?’ Or the Chinese political lecturer who used the word ‘politic’ instead of the plural ‘politics’. When I reminded him of the plural, he said, ‘No, there’s only one politic, communism.’ Different place with the same indoctrinated mind-set. http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/icons/icon7.png


HA,
hopefully we're not quite THAT insular.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I’m just agreeing with one of your fellow Americans, Revelarts and asking you to consider new perspectives with an open mind as he did, instead of a closed mind. You’re not the only country to have suffered from an insular and myopic outlook.


Look back at the revolution and what springs to mind when you think of the British Empire? Haughty, arrogant, controlling and what did they do in a rebellion? Send in the army. It happened over nearly a third of the world, ‘damn foreigners, they’re not like us’ and out they went to subdue. The French, Dutch (who still had apartheid until fairly recently in South Africa) . . . Many countries suffered from ‘exceptionalism’. In my lifetime I remember black golliwogs on jars of jam and signs in rented buildings stating, ‘No blacks, Irish or pets’. The older ones amongst you can still remember segregation in America itself. This isn’t communism and ‘reds under the beds’, this is basic history.

Many have the same attitude now as England had just a century ago; if they’re not one of us and you can’t control them, kill them. They’re dangerous, a threat, they’re going to invade us . . . The end days of British rule is what you’re now experiencing with the backlash of terrorism and the bigger countries themselves drawing red lines, it’s just that many of you with closed ideological mind-set can’t see it or have difficulty accepting it.



What other nations or empires do you slam now that you have vilified The British Empire and America Imperialism?
Since as you put it both failed so damn miserably, care to point out any past or present that has not failed ?
None are perfect but the fools that preach "go with us to paradise " always end up murdering millions or tens of millions in modern times(communism, nazism , etc.).
Anybody can cry out Nirvana to be had--yet nobody ever produces it...in fact- those that scream that the loudest end up farther away from it than any of the others.-Tyr

[revelarts]

Strange that you omit the most glaringly obvious tie-in to all of the above. Particularly since it's so completely crucial to applying relevant context to any of it.

One word isn't mentioned at all. Very strangely.
Namely ...

TERRORISM.

HAD YOU FORGOTTEN ABOUT IT ? HAD ITS RELEVANCE SOMEHOW SLIPPED YOUR MEMORY ?
Sorry, but your rejigging of context for ALL of the above, Revelarts, just isn't working for me.

So you're saying we overthrew the democratically elected Mossadeg of Iran in 1953 because of "TERRORISM!!!" ?
we attacked Libya and Ghadfi who was fighting AQ because of "TERRORISM!!"?
We supported the mujahedeen and the Afghan people against the U.S.S.R. because of "TERRORISM!!"?
Strange that i also omitted we put syrup on our pancakes because of "TERRORISM!!"

[Balu]

Welcome to this forum. I hope you enjoy your time here.

As you're here, and at an opportune time .. can I ask you a question which your comrade has been asked, but without answering as yet ?

Can you tell us how the ordinary Russian citizen views the sanctions currently being applied against Russia ? What do you understand of the reason for them being applied ?
It may sound strange, but we are grateful for this "sanctions".
They are vey useful push for our domestic agriculture and industry for increase of working places and an income to the budge. Nowadays there re much more domestic items in the stores. Moreover, they made us to take closer look the East and we've already found there man possibilities and more actively escape from US$ in our foreign trade and relations. So, we've got plenty of +++ I think we MUST thank the West and pray the Lord to remain these "sanctions". Do trust I am absolutely serious. No jokes at all.

[Jeff]

OK the Heck with all this Blah Blah Blah, y'all have pretty ladies over there ? If so post pictures. :laugh:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

OK the Heck with all this Blah Blah Blah, y'all have pretty ladies over there ? If so post pictures. :laugh:
Would be a most welcomed change for the guys here. :beer:--Tyr

[Little-Acorn]

Are you using a translator? You are missing HIS point.

I DO see your point in regard to servicemen.

His point is broader in scheme and takes in the entire society. People who believe the government should take care of them versus people who think they should take care of themselves, and be left alone by the government.

Exactly. Servicemen are a different case, they have put life and limb at risk for very poor compensation, to defend their country. The government (and thus the taxpayers like me) DO owe them far more, and have an obligation to "take care of them".

But ordinary civilians (such as myself) who have not been servicemen, have no such claim on the state. The only thing the state (that is, the central government) "owes" them, is government's basic duty to prevent others from interfering with their lives. Our central (Federal) government must fight of invasions and other attacks, must pursue and prosecute criminals, must adjudicate claims through courts, and a specified number of other functions. The government must NOT provide ordinary civilians food, shelter, medical insurance, retirement funds, unemployment funds, set workplace standards and wages, and many other such. And in fact, in this country (U.S.), the central government is forbidden to do such things by our founding Constitution. But our government often violates this ban, for the purpose of buying votes.

In this country, "Liberals" are people who support those violations, and spend large amounts of time inventing excuses why the govt should be allowed to do so. "Conservatives" are people who oppose those violations.

[Drummond]

It may sound strange, but we are grateful for this "sanctions".
They are vey useful push for our domestic agriculture and industry for increase of working places and an income to the budge. Nowadays there re much more domestic items in the stores. Moreover, they made us to take closer look the East and we've already found there man possibilities and more actively escape from US$ in our foreign trade and relations. So, we've got plenty of +++ I think we MUST thank the West and pray the Lord to remain these "sanctions". Do trust I am absolutely serious. No jokes at all.

Well, now, it's nice that you like them ! Perhaps we can send some more your way, if Russians appreciate them so much ?:rolleyes:

But I see that you, along with your compatriot, haven't - yet - got around to answering this part of what I was asking you. My wording was ...


What do you understand of the reason for them being applied ?

[Drummond]

So you're saying we overthrew the democratically elected Mossadeg of Iran in 1953 because of "TERRORISM!!!" ?
we attacked Libya and Ghadfi who was fighting AQ because of "TERRORISM!!"?
We supported the mujahedeen and the Afghan people against the U.S.S.R. because of "TERRORISM!!"?
Strange that i also omitted we put syrup on our pancakes because of "TERRORISM!!"

Allow me to remind you of your own wording ...


Concerning Iraq, Libya, Taliban, We set Attacked Iraq, put in rulers, 1st an American. Made it dependent on us militarily and otherwise and half left... but pipelines are secure.
We attacked Libya overthrew it's leader, TRYED to put in freindlys but couldn't.
I'll admit the Taliban and mujahedeen "freedom fighters" are different but U.S. officials worked with each while convenient then didn't.

I see Iraq (the invasion of Iraq was part of the War on TERROR) ... has now, magically, become IRAN, instead ?

Libya's more difficult an example, granted ..

But the Taliban isn't. Nor the Mujahiddeen, who reinvented themselves to become Al Qaeda terrorists, AND TERRORISTS WHO ATTACKED THE US. The Taliban certainly have their own claim to be labelled terrorists, but even more than this, they were terrorist ENABLERS.

But you forgot all of that. Maybe substituting one country for another in order to strengthen your argument, took its toll ?

[revelarts]

....
do you mean not conquering or ruling like in Iraq or Libya or Panama or El Salvador or Iran when we deposed Mosaddeq and put in the Shaw. Afghanistan when we supported the Taliban to beat on the U.S.S.R. then attacked the Tailiban when they didn't do what we wanted?
And are you including covert control via International Biz and agreements favorable to U.S. biz and if not we act as if the gov't is criminal and must be harassed like in the case of Chavez and others?
I said objective standard not just by an overt old school model....


Allow me to remind you of your own wording ...
I see Iraq (the invasion of Iraq was part of the War on TERROR) ... has now, magically, become IRAN, instead ?
Libya's more difficult an example, granted ..
But the Taliban isn't. Nor the Mujahiddeen, who reinvented themselves to become Al Qaeda terrorists, AND TERRORISTS WHO ATTACKED THE US. The Taliban certainly have their own claim to be labelled terrorists, but even more than this, they were terrorist ENABLERS.
But you forgot all of that. Maybe substituting one country for another in order to strengthen your argument, took its toll ?

I was continuing from my more full 1st statement that covered more than gunny's selection.
Concerning Iraq and terrorism.... well we disagree on the reality of those accusations. But Bush said several times that Saddam had "nothing" to do with 9-11. Plus Saddam hated Bin Laden. bin laden called Saddam an infidel too. Saddam was an AQ enemy. As Bush and Obama claim to be, accept when they aren't.

[Balu]

Well, now, it's nice that you like them ! Perhaps we can send some more your way, if Russians appreciate them so much ?:rolleyes:

But I see that you, along with your compatriot, haven't - yet - got around to answering this part of what I was asking you. My wording was ...
The reasons are evident - to force Russia acts as she was told to. But this approach to Russia is counterproductive and useless. Don't forget we are nether Yugoslavia, nor Iraq or Libya. We have the sixth economy in the World. And if anybody want to shoot at own legs, this is a matter of their choice and preferences. This is none of our business. :)
And don't forget our History taught us to mobilize and tighten our belts if necessary. But now there is no any necessity to tighten 'em up. For your info - at about 15 million Russians a year enjoy their rest abroad. And we go abroad not hunting for a job, but to spend our money. Those of you who happened to visit, say, Switzerland for skiing must have noticed that there are inscriptions in Russiann4-5 star hotels for our convenience.
Here we are.:)

[Drummond]

I was continuing from my more full 1st statement that covered more than gunny's selection.
Concerning Iraq and terrorism.... well we disagree on the reality of those accusations. But Bush said several times that Saddam had "nothing" to do with 9-11. Plus Saddam hated Bin Laden. bin laden called Saddam an infidel too. Saddam was an AQ enemy. As Bush and Obama claim to be, accept when they aren't.

The War on Terror, then, was always meant only to deal with terrorism directly linked to the 9/11 attack ? All other terrorists were meant to thrive ?

And you dismiss any possibility of a link, or collaboration, between Al Qaeda and Saddam ?

Explain this, then ...

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/wikileaks-iraq-al-qaeda-connection-confirmed-again_558271.html


.. Sadkhan’s al Qaeda ties reached all the way to Osama bin Laden, according to the intelligence assessment. He reportedly received money from Osama bin Laden both before and after the September 11 attacks.

In Afghanistan, Sadkhan served under another Iraqi al Qaeda member: Abdul Hadi al Iraqi. According to the Gitmo analysts’ assessment, al Iraqi “identified [Sadkhan] in a letter as an Iraqi intelligence officer who relocated to Afghanistan where he was associated with Taliban and al-Qaida leadership.”

Abdul Hadi al Iraqi’s identification of Sadkhan is especially important. Al Iraqi was a major in Saddam Hussein’s military before relocating to Afghanistan, where he became one of Osama bin Laden’s top lieutenants in the 1990s. Al Iraqi led al Qaeda’s elite Arab 055 Brigade, which fought alongside the Taliban in Afghanistan.

In addition to being a top al Qaeda and Taliban military commander, al Iraqi was also involved in al Qaeda’s international operations. For example, al Iraqi met with two of the July 7, 2005 London bombers in northern Pakistan. Although the two had volunteered to fight against coalition forces in Afghanistan or Iraq, al Iraqi recognized their potential for committing attacks in the West and repurposed them for the 7/7 operation.

And you conveniently forget Saddam's sheltering of Zarqawi ...


The reasons are evident - to force Russia acts as she was told to. But this approach to Russia is counterproductive and useless. Don't forget we are nether Yugoslavia, nor Iraq or Libya. We have the sixth economy in the World. And if anybody want to shoot at own legs, this is a matter of their choice and preferences. This is none of our business. :)
And don't forget our History taught us to mobilize and tighten our belts if necessary. But now there is no any necessity to tighten 'em up. For your info - at about 15 million Russians a year enjoy their rest abroad. And we go abroad not hunting for a job, but to spend our money. Those of you who happened to visit, say, Switzerland for skiing must have noticed that there are inscriptions in Russiann4-5 star hotels for our convenience.
Here we are.:)

Thanks for your answer. I'm glad you attempted one.

But the real reason is perfectly simple: they're a reaction to Russia's belligerence against Ukraine, since from a Western point of view, we believe Ukraine has every right to actually DARE to conduct itself as its own sovereign State (!!), without having to suffer Russia's insurrectionist activities within its borders, and troop invasions which Russia will not only not admit to, but does its utmost to suppress news of.

In short - 'Sudetenland' style annexations and interferences are affronts to international law and international security ... and Putin needs to put a stop to such outrageous aggressions. The days of Soviet empire-building should be finally consigned to history, not be resurrected !

This is meant to be the 21st century. Some of us hoped for a more civilised international world environment than we're getting. Progress should be the order of things, not regressions to more barbarous times.

It is to be hoped that Putin can begin to act responsibly on the world stage while he still has latitude to extricate himself, and his country, from intensifying isolation.

[aboutime]

The War on Terror, then, was always meant only to deal with terrorism directly linked to the 9/11 attack ? All other terrorists were meant to thrive ?

And you dismiss any possibility of a link, or collaboration, between Al Qaeda and Saddam ?

Explain this, then ...

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/wikileaks-iraq-al-qaeda-connection-confirmed-again_558271.html



And you conveniently forget Saddam's sheltering of Zarqawi ...



Sir Drummond.We should also note how those who hate Bush so much..also Intentionally
never want to mention the FIRST Attack on the WTC in 1993. And, as a navy veteran. I
remember feeling the anger of the attack on the USS COLE...which was an ACT OF WAR.
Any attack on a U.S. Vessel, especially a NAVY vessel is an ACT OF WAR.
But CLINTON was afraid to deal with either of those attacks.
So..the RIGHTFUL blame for everything that took place on 9-11...Can, and should be on CLINTON.
But....the silence on those FACTS remain DEAFENING.

[Drummond]

Sir Drummond.We should also note how those who hate Bush so much..also Intentionally
never want to mention the FIRST Attack on the WTC in 1993. And, as a navy veteran. I
remember feeling the anger of the attack on the USS COLE...which was an ACT OF WAR.
Any attack on a U.S. Vessel, especially a NAVY vessel is an ACT OF WAR.
But CLINTON was afraid to deal with either of those attacks.
So..the RIGHTFUL blame for everything that took place on 9-11...Can, and should be on CLINTON.
But....the silence on those FACTS remain DEAFENING.:clap::clap::clap::clap:

I'm guilty myself of forgetting about those earlier attacks. I'm grateful to be reminded of them. Some great points -- thanks, Aboutime !

[Balu]

Thanks for your answer. I'm glad you attempted one.

But the real reason is perfectly simple: they're a reaction to Russia's belligerence against Ukraine, since from a Western point of view, we believe Ukraine has every right to actually DARE to conduct itself as its own sovereign State (!!), without having to suffer Russia's insurrectionist activities within its borders, and troop invasions which Russia will not only not admit to, but does its utmost to suppress news of.

In short - 'Sudetenland' style annexations and interferences are affronts to international law and international security ... and Putin needs to put a stop to such outrageous aggressions. The days of Soviet empire-building should be finally consigned to history, not be resurrected !

This is meant to be the 21st century. Some of us hoped for a more civilised international world environment than we're getting. Progress should be the order of things, not regressions to more barbarous times.

It is to be hoped that Putin can begin to act responsibly on the world stage while he still has latitude to extricate himself, and his country, from intensifying isolation.
Nobody is against Ukraine follow their own way, but ... at their own expense. Now Russia is not intended to maintain Ukraine furthermore with credits, discounts, zero duties, taxation and placing preferably export orders with their plans.. For you info -within over 10 years Russia had been selling gas to Ukraine for 50$ per 1,000 cubic metes with the right to re-export it, while the price in Europe was at about 175$.
Speaking about Russian troops in Ukraine we got tired to ask for evidence of their presence, but nobody could submit it. We hear only Bla-Bla. So, there is no subject to speak about.

[Drummond]

Nobody is against Ukraine follow their own way, but ... at their own expense. Now Russia is not intended to maintain Ukraine furthermore with credits, discounts, zero duties, taxation and placing preferably export orders with their plans.. For you info -within over 10 years Russia had been selling gas to Ukraine for 50$ per 1,000 cubic metes with the right to re-export it, while the price in Europe was at about 175$.
Speaking about Russian troops in Ukraine we got tired to ask for evidence of their presence, but nobody could submit it. We hear only Bla-Bla. So, there is no subject to speak about.

On your last point, maybe that just shows how strenuous the efforts were to suppress the truth ?

But see my post #35 on this thread. Here's a link to it:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?49837-Hellow-from-Russia&p=736902#post736902

See --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E2...ion_in_Ukraine

... and, from it ...


Russian soldiers captured in Ukraine, comments made by rebel leaders such as Alexander Zakharchenko, and statements from human rights groups indicated that Russian service personnel were fighting in Ukraine. Russia has denied allegations of its involvement in eastern Ukraine.

Several members of the international community and organizations such as Amnesty International have condemned Russia for its actions in post-revolutionary Ukraine, accusing it of breaking international law and violating Ukrainian sovereignty. Many countries implemented economic sanctions against Russia or Russian individuals or companies, to which Russia responded in kind.The Kremlin has tried to systematically intimidate and silence human rights workers who have raised questions about Russian soldiers' deaths in the conflict

If 'there is no subject to speak about', as you say, it's because your masters insist that nothing BE said on that subject. They hate the truth, because they know of its shameful nature.

On your first point:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/25/world/europe/russia-warns-ukraine-over-natural-gas-supply.html?_r=0


MOSCOW — As Russia warned Ukraine on Tuesday that it could run out of natural gas within two days because of a dispute over payments, Britain said it was sending military trainers to aid Ukrainian forces while European diplomats labored to patch up a flagging peace agreement in eastern Ukraine.

The warning by Aleksei B. Miller, the chief executive of Gazprom, the state-controlled Russian energy behemoth, illustrated how the hostilities between Russia and Ukraine are hardly limited to the battlefields in eastern Ukraine, where a cease-fire agreed to nearly two weeks ago has still not fully taken hold.

Russia has long used its muscle as the region’s major energy supplier to wield political and economic influence, particularly in disputes with Ukraine and other former Soviet republics. A bitter feud over gas payments has been a subplot of the wider political dispute between Moscow and Kiev over the past year.

“Ukraine has not made prepayment for gas on time,” Mr. Miller said at a news conference in Russia, local news agencies reported. He added that the time needed for Kiev to make a payment “will result in a total end to supplies of Russian gas to Ukraine in just two days, which poses serious risks for gas transit to Europe.”

However, Ukraine says it has already paid for all the gas it requested for this year, and for an additional 287 million cubic meters not yet ordered. Kiev is now accusing Russia of violating an agreement reached in October, under which Ukraine paid $3.1 billion in past gas bills and Gazprom resumed supplies on a prepaid basis. That agreement was expected to keep Ukraine fully supplied with gas through the winter.

The dispute seems to hinge at least in part on the gas that Russia has delivered to the breakaway regions in eastern Ukraine, which it says counts toward the total Kiev bought in advance. Earlier this month, Gazprom said it would supply natural gas directly to the regions, which are largely controlled by separatists, because it said the Ukrainian government had shut off supplies. Gazprom said that it would charge Ukraine for that gas, and that the amount of gas supplied to the east would be deducted from Ukraine’s prepaid allotment.

Kommersant, the Russian business newspaper, reported that Gazprom had slowed deliveries over pipelines crossing Ukrainian-controlled parts of the border, while opening the spigots to two pipelines leading directly to rebel-held territory.

The gas diversion highlights a broader Russian strategy in eastern Ukraine of assuring its political and military control over the breakaway enclave while avoiding the economic burden of caring for the population, estimated at about three million people.

It seems that Putin will grasp any means, use any excuse, to tighten his controls over Ukraine, to make sure it remains as dependent as possible upon Mother Russia. Very 'Soviet' of him ...

[revelarts]

The War on Terror, then, was always meant only to deal with terrorism directly linked to the 9/11 attack ? All other terrorists were meant to thrive ?
And you dismiss any possibility of a link, or collaboration, between Al Qaeda and Saddam ?
Explain this, then ...
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/wikileaks-iraq-al-qaeda-connection-confirmed-again_558271.html
And you conveniently forget Saddam's sheltering of Zarqawi ...

What the "war on terror" was meant to do is something we won't agree on either.
concerning Zarqawi

...In Kurdistan he lived and worked with the separatist militant Islamist group Ansar al-Islam, ironically in an area protected as part of the “no-fly” zone imposed on Saddam Hussein by Washington.One can only imagine how astonished al-Zarqawi must have been when Colin Powell named him as the crucial link between al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein’s regime. He was not even officially a part of al-Qaeda, and ever since he had left Afghanistan, his links had been not to Iraq but to Iran.
“We know Zarqawi better than he knows himself,” the high-level Jordanian intelligence official said. “And I can assure you that he never had any links to Saddam. Iran is quite a different matter. The Iranians have a policy: they want to control Iraq. And part of this policy has been to support Zarqawi, tactically but not strategically.”
“Such as?” I asked.
“In the beginning they gave him automatic weapons, uniforms, military equipment, when he was with the army of Ansar al-Islam. Now they essentially just turn a blind eye to his activities, and to those of al-Qaeda generally. The Iranians see Iraq as a fight against the Americans, and overall, they’ll get rid of Zarqawi and all of his people once the Americans are out.”....
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/07/the-short-violent-life-of-abu-musab-al-zarqawi/304983/
you might want to read the article the bits about Zarqawi and Bin Ladens meeting will interest you.


Dr. Judith Yaphe, PhD, Senior Research Fellow and Middle East Project Director in the Institute for National Strategic Studies at the National Defense University, on July 9, 2003 stated at a public hearing to the National Committee on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States:
"In my judgment, Saddam assessed Usama bin Ladin and al-Qaida as a threat rather than a potential partner to be exploited to attack the United States. Bin Ladin wanted to attack Iraq after it occupied Kuwait in 1990 rather than have the Saudi government depend on foreign military forces. Several captured al-Qaida operatives have said Usama refused to consider working for or with Saddam, according to press accounts. Saddam would have understood that after Usama had realized his ambition to remove U.S. forces from Arabia and eliminate the Al Sa`ud and other ruling families in the Gulf, that he would have been the next target. The threat would have appeared particularly risky to Saddam, given the modest indicators of a revival in personal piety and Islamist dress among Iraqi Sunnis in the last decade. He certainly suspected Saudi Arabia of encouraging Wahhabi pietism and practices among Iraq's Sunni Arabs and Bin Ladin's loyalists would have been suspect of similar anti-regime activities...

Czech and American intelligence officials say they are unable to confirm any meeting between al-Qaida operative Mohammed Atta and an Iraqi intelligence officer, identified as Ahmed Khalil Ibrahim Samir al-Ani. I would be disappointed if an Iraqi intelligence officer did not meet with al-Qaida operatives. He would have been derelict in his duty if he did not at least try to arrange a meeting. His purpose would have been to assess intent, operational capability, and recruitment potential. It would not have been sufficient for both simply to hate the U.S. Saddam always demanded total loyalty from and control over any group he supported. The evidence is fairly clear, at least in my mind, that al-Qaida would not be subordinated to any government, even if Usama had admired Saddam, which he did not."

July 9, 2003 - Judith Share Yaphe, PhD http://usiraq.procon.org/images/gstar.gifhttp://usiraq.procon.org/images/gstar.gifhttp://usiraq.procon.org/images/gstar.gif (http://usiraq.procon.org/view.source.php?sourceID=003904)


The Al Iraqi item you mention is interesting. I can't "explain it" but it doesn't really prove an official Iraq or Saddam connection.
was Major Al Iraqi a defector from Iraq ? a spy still loyal to Saddam? or an official operative of Iraq? the clip doesn't say. I'm not sure i should assume anything more than
A former Iraqi Military man decided to work for AQ.
But there are people from nearly every M.E. country that have join AQ. some from the UK and the U.S. as well.

If you want to see someone else interesting check out this article. U.S. citizen Eyptian agent and AQ lt. Ali Mohamed arrested but "disappeared" from federal custody
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Al-Qaeda-terrorist-worked-with-FBI-Ex-Silicon-2861719.php

and also on this "war on terror" have we attacked Saudi Arabia and taken over that country? Since they had the MOST ties to 911 and harbored, trained and financed more terrorist and also is the seat of the most vile and aggressive form of Islam?!

no?

[John V]

I think you're making the classic mistake of projecting your attitudes which have their roots from one cause, upon something else which is only superficially similar (if, indeed, it is !).

So, you're anti the old British Empire. Fair enough .. I've no great regard for those days, either (to the extent I ever think about them, or consider them remotely relevant to modern times). But much of what America has faced is markedly outside of the British experience.

You said it yourself, with the technically correct statement about the British mainland not having been invaded since 1066. [Quite right ... the Channel Islands aren't part of 'the British mainland', but they WERE occupied by the Germans during WWII ....]

But consider 9/11 and the great trauma following. It wasn't an invasion, but it WAS a violation, an especially shocking, savage, disgustingly subhuman attack on innocent civilians, perpetrated on the soil of an especially proud and patriotic People.

The War on Terror was the only reasonable response, fighting not just for a comeback against America having been attacked, but for the peace and security of the Western world.

Projecting your distaste for Empirical jingoism is NOT an appropriate message for a people defending civilised values in the face of bloodthirsty savagery.

That terrorism is not something America either earned or deserved. But it has every right to respond to it with effectiveness, pride, integrity. Your identifiably British hangups over the aftermath of our own long-since dead Empire, I suggest, have no place in any of that.

Nope, the American exceptionalism is exactly the kind of attitude those in the days of the British Empire held. For different reasons of course.

Which is why I mentioned the word ‘mainland’ for the benefit of the nit pickers.


Agreed, 9/11 was a despicable act requiring retribution and as one politician remarked at the time, something along the lines of, the next time this happens you’ll see a mushroom cloud. Having invaded Afghanistan which is where it came from, America then decided to ‘wage war on terror’ using its own definition of who and which country they thought it might arise from. There is no threat from the outside world, Syria, Libya or whoever else isn’t going to invade America.

Afghanistan should have sent such a warning to the world that it should have stopped terror in its tracks, not pussyfooting around pretending it’s a police action and trying to bring democracy to a backward stone-age people. Can you still hear the Russians laughing at the liberal American gung-ho? In my opinion, America should have gone in there like a ton of bricks, minus the media and politicians and let the military sort it out themselves. Never mind all this, ‘they ripped up my Quoran and I find it offensive’ nonsense.

9/11 happened 14 years ago, America responded, there’s no need to invade or bomb anyone else, it’s over, finished and despite this ‘war on terror’ it hasn’t produced democracy or ended terror in any part of the world. I don’t have hang-ups, Iraq didn’t invade America and Syria won’t either. Why not concentrate on Saudi Arabia who is definitely sponsoring terrorism or Pakistan which is up to its neck in it? What started as a well-deserved response turned into paranoia and a desire to change the world to its own thinking. By the way, an estimate of over 17,000 civilians killed in Iraq in 2014 (not counting military deaths), contractors have reaped $138bn from Iraq and Yum! Brands’ Pizza Hut division is starting to open up a chain of pizza huts, so perhaps it wasn’t all in vain. :rolleyes:


Now go and nit-pick the parts you don’t like out of that, but please, spare me the ‘effectiveness, pride and integrity’ v the rest of the world stuff. If I sense it is nit-picking or baiting I simply won’t reply. Oh and look out, given that there is no invasion of America, the next false flag is, ‘I think there might be Russian tanks approaching’.

[Balu]

On your last point, maybe that just shows how strenuous the efforts were to suppress the truth ?

But see my post #35 on this thread. Here's a link to it:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?49837-Hellow-from-Russia&p=736902#post736902

See --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E2...ion_in_Ukraine

... and, from it ...



If 'there is no subject to speak about', as you say, it's because your masters insist that nothing BE said on that subject. They hate the truth, because they know of its shameful nature.

On your first point:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/25/world/europe/russia-warns-ukraine-over-natural-gas-supply.html?_r=0



It seems that Putin will grasp any means, use any excuse, to tighten his controls over Ukraine, to make sure it remains as dependent as possible upon Mother Russia. Very 'Soviet' of him ...

OK. And now let's start switching on our OWN brains.
More than TWO MILLION (!!!) rebels with their families run to "aggressor", to Russia, from this civil war. Among them there are over 500.000 (!!!) of those who tried to escape mobilization. Question: "Can you imagine the similar situation, when millions of British did the same, running to Germany in 40th of the past century?" Doesn't it sound crazy? :)

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Nope, the American exceptionalism is exactly the kind of attitude those in the days of the British Empire held. For different reasons of course.

Which is why I mentioned the word ‘mainland’ for the benefit of the nit pickers.


Agreed, 9/11 was a despicable act requiring retribution and as one politician remarked at the time, something along the lines of, the next time this happens you’ll see a mushroom cloud. Having invaded Afghanistan which is where it came from, America then decided to ‘wage war on terror’ using its own definition of who and which country they thought it might arise from. There is no threat from the outside world, Syria, Libya or whoever else isn’t going to invade America.

Afghanistan should have sent such a warning to the world that it should have stopped terror in its tracks, not pussyfooting around pretending it’s a police action and trying to bring democracy to a backward stone-age people. Can you still hear the Russians laughing at the liberal American gung-ho? In my opinion, America should have gone in there like a ton of bricks, minus the media and politicians and let the military sort it out themselves. Never mind all this, ‘they ripped up my Quoran and I find it offensive’ nonsense.

9/11 happened 14 years ago, America responded, there’s no need to invade or bomb anyone else, it’s over, finished and despite this ‘war on terror’ it hasn’t produced democracy or ended terror in any part of the world. I don’t have hang-ups, Iraq didn’t invade America and Syria won’t either. Why not concentrate on Saudi Arabia who is definitely sponsoring terrorism or Pakistan which is up to its neck in it? What started as a well-deserved response turned into paranoia and a desire to change the world to its own thinking. By the way, an estimate of over 17,000 civilians killed in Iraq in 2014 (not counting military deaths), contractors have reaped $138bn from Iraq and Yum! Brands’ Pizza Hut division is starting to open up a chain of pizza huts, so perhaps it wasn’t all in vain. :rolleyes:


Now go and nit-pick the parts you don’t like out of that, but please, spare me the ‘effectiveness, pride and integrity’ v the rest of the world stuff. If I sense it is nit-picking or baiting I simply won’t reply. Oh and look out, given that there is no invasion of America, the next false flag is, ‘I think there might be Russian tanks approaching’.




If I sense it is nit-picking or baiting I simply won’t reply.

That is your choice to make. It does appear to be a coverall and convenient excuse to ignore certain posters that may choose not to comment on the overall premise of your stand but instead take exception to one or two of your declarations/judgments..
I do hope this reply doesn't get classed as "baiting" or "nit picking".
By the way, nothing wrong with that warning if it is honorably exercised.....
Only time will reveal if that is the case IMHO..

American exceptionalism is either a fact or it is a lie. If true, then the "attitude" may be justified even if its an open display of arrogance.
The comparison with the Brit Empire of old does not fit as America does not and never did colonize most of the world. Nor has America held onto a King/Queen culture.
We do have a Constitution and that makes all the difference in world between our two nations.-Tyr

[revelarts]

Nope, the American exceptionalism is exactly the kind of attitude those in the days of the British Empire held. For different reasons of course.

Which is why I mentioned the word ‘mainland’ for the benefit of the nit pickers.


Agreed, 9/11 was a despicable act requiring retribution and as one politician remarked at the time, something along the lines of, the next time this happens you’ll see a mushroom cloud. Having invaded Afghanistan which is where it came from, America then decided to ‘wage war on terror’ using its own definition of who and which country they thought it might arise from. There is no threat from the outside world, Syria, Libya or whoever else isn’t going to invade America.

Afghanistan should have sent such a warning to the world that it should have stopped terror in its tracks, not pussyfooting around pretending it’s a police action and trying to bring democracy to a backward stone-age people. Can you still hear the Russians laughing at the liberal American gung-ho? In my opinion, America should have gone in there like a ton of bricks, minus the media and politicians and let the military sort it out themselves. Never mind all this, ‘they ripped up my Quoran and I find it offensive’ nonsense.

9/11 happened 14 years ago, America responded, there’s no need to invade or bomb anyone else, it’s over, finished and despite this ‘war on terror’ it hasn’t produced democracy or ended terror in any part of the world. I don’t have hang-ups, Iraq didn’t invade America and Syria won’t either. Why not concentrate on Saudi Arabia who is definitely sponsoring terrorism or Pakistan which is up to its neck in it? What started as a well-deserved response turned into paranoia and a desire to change the world to its own thinking. By the way, an estimate of over 17,000 civilians killed in Iraq in 2014 (not counting military deaths), contractors have reaped $138bn from Iraq and Yum! Brands’ Pizza Hut division is starting to open up a chain of pizza huts, so perhaps it wasn’t all in vain. :rolleyes:


.....

DOH!!!
John,
well said sir

[John V]

That is your choice to make. It does appear to be a coverall and convenient excuse to ignore certain posters that may choose not to comment on the overall premise of your stand but instead take exception to one or two of your declarations/judgments..
I do hope this reply doesn't get classed as "baiting" or "nit picking".
By the way, nothing wrong with that warning if it is honorably exercised.....
Only time will reveal if that is the case IMHO..

American exceptionalism is either a fact or it is a lie. If true, then the "attitude" may be justified even if its an open display of arrogance.
The comparison with the Brit Empire of old does not fit as America does not and never did colonize most of the world. Nor has America held onto a King/Queen culture.
We do have a Constitution and that makes all the difference in world between our two nations.-Tyr

It certainly is my choice to make and if I choose not to reply to who I decide are baiters, quoter’s or nit-pickers, that’s also my choice.

True, exceptionalism is either a widely held belief or not. Obama seems to think so and it’s a view shared by many. How do you justify ‘an open display of arrogance’? (Your words, not mine).

There was never a comparison between colonialization and monarchies. The comparison was between an exceptionalist mind-set during the British Empire and in your own words, a justifiable ‘open display of arrogance’, as an excuse for American intervention. You might think there’s a difference, but Britain’s former colonies and the countries America has interfered with don’t.

Of course you have a constitution and the UK has a monarchy. What’s your point?

[fj1200]

well shining a dark light on it
do you mean not conquering or ruling like in Iraq or Libya or Panama or El Salvador or Iran when we deposed Mosaddeq and put in the Shaw. Afghanistan when we supported the Taliban to beat on the U.S.S.R. then attacked the Tailiban when they didn't do what we wanted?

And are you including covert control via International Biz and agreements favorable to U.S. biz and if not we act as if the gov't is criminal and must be harassed like in the case of Chaveza and others?

I said objective standard not just by an overt old school model.

We didn't seek to rule in those cases. Bush would have been happy to leave Iraq, Libya? no, Panama? Teddy wanted a ditch, etc. I won't argue all of our efforts were the best, required, whatever but imperialism has a specific connotation which is absent here. We could have been the worst imperialist nation on earth but our efforts in rebuilding Asia, Europe after WWII better explains our efforts.

[fj1200]

It may sound strange, but we are grateful for this "sanctions".
They are vey useful push for our domestic agriculture and industry for increase of working places and an income to the budge. Nowadays there re much more domestic items in the stores. Moreover, they made us to take closer look the East and we've already found there man possibilities and more actively escape from US$ in our foreign trade and relations. So, we've got plenty of +++ I think we MUST thank the West and pray the Lord to remain these "sanctions". Do trust I am absolutely serious. No jokes at all.

There were some benefits from the protectionism of the late 1920s as well but they were unfortunately short term. If you can replace the West with the East then good on ya but there are costs from being cut off from willing trading partners.

[Balu]

There were some benefits from the protectionism of the late 1920s as well but they were unfortunately short term. If you can replace the West with the East then good on ya but there are costs from being cut off from willing trading partners.
I remember perfectly well that the similar "sanctions" against China caused the rapid growth of their economy. The West has made the same mistake being in the world of own illusions. ("We have broken the Russian economy in tatters@ (c) President Obama)http://smayli.ru/data/smiles/smehs-302.gif (http://pozdravitel.ru/smajliki/) Russia is neither Iraq, nor Libya.

[fj1200]

I remember perfectly well that the similar "sanctions" against China caused the rapid growth of their economy. The West has made the same mistake being in the world of own illusions. ("We have broken the Russian economy in tatters@ (c) President Obama)http://smayli.ru/data/smiles/smehs-302.gif (http://pozdravitel.ru/smajliki/) Russia is neither Iraq, nor Libya.

I agree that you may be able to replace any benefits/products you get from the US but if there were global solidarity of sanctions then with 30% of your economy devoted to trade it would cause some problems. The price of oil will probably cause more problems for you than our sanctions.

Also, I probably dispute that sanctions caused the rapid growth of China's economy.

This doesn't present a pretty picture:

How US & European Union Sanctions Impact Russia (http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/011515/how-us-european-union-sanctions-impact-russia.asp)


The sanctions' impact is exacerbated by the near 50% slide in crude oil prices, as Russia is the world's second-biggest exporter of crude oil and it relies on oil sales for almost half of its domestic budget. Severely impacted by the one-two punch of sanctions and sliding oil prices, the Russian economy shrank 0.5% in November 2014, the first contraction in five years. Here are a number of negative effects that economic sanctions (and sliding oil prices) are having on the Russian economy:

[Gunny]

I've no intention to convince anybody. I've just tried to do my best to place a real situation in front of you, as your CNN shows you that there are palms in Moscow among which there are demonstrations for democracy. :)
We have CNN on our TV, so I really enjoyed that picture. :)

Then you miss the premise of posting on a message board. You present an argument AND you back it up.

I wouldn't put all my faith CNN. I'm not saying the news isn't fact, but how its presented is designed to lead you to believe a certain political point of view.

[Balu]

То my American friends. You must have not been aware that after reunion of Crimea to Russia the Russian servicemen got a name "The Polite Folks", as there was not a single shot, not a single combat victim, in spite of the fact that there were more than 20.000 Ukrainian servicemen in their permanent units and sites with all the armament enabling them to fight according to their military oath. Russian troops, staying in the territory of Crimea according to the agreement between Russia and Ukraine, executed pure police functions to secure the order when holding referendum. Russia had no need in "democratic bombing", cruising missiles, distraction of TV and radio centers, bridges and accompanying thшы victims. Don't you find this rather peculiar?
I bet you've never heard about this. http://smayli.ru/data/smiles/podmigivaniya-118.gif (http://pozdravitel.ru/smajliki/)

[Gunny]

I’m just agreeing with one of your fellow Americans, Revelarts and asking you to consider new perspectives with an open mind as he did, instead of a closed mind. You’re not the only country to have suffered from an insular and myopic outlook.


Look back at the revolution and what springs to mind when you think of the British Empire? Haughty, arrogant, controlling and what did they do in a rebellion? Send in the army. It happened over nearly a third of the world, ‘damn foreigners, they’re not like us’ and out they went to subdue. The French, Dutch (who still had apartheid until fairly recently in South Africa) . . . Many countries suffered from ‘exceptionalism’. In my lifetime I remember black golliwogs on jars of jam and signs in rented buildings stating, ‘No blacks, Irish or pets’. The older ones amongst you can still remember segregation in America itself. This isn’t communism and ‘reds under the beds’, this is basic history.

Many have the same attitude now as England had just a century ago; if they’re not one of us and you can’t control them, kill them. They’re dangerous, a threat, they’re going to invade us . . . The end days of British rule is what you’re now experiencing with the backlash of terrorism and the bigger countries themselves drawing red lines, it’s just that many of you with closed ideological mind-set can’t see it or have difficulty accepting it.



There's nothing open-minded about you so far, and if I'm not thinking like rev, I must be doing something right.:laugh:

You talk about having an open mind; yet, your argument amounts to little more than a presumptive judgment. No "bigger countries" created extremist Islam. The sectarian war WITHIN Islam between the Shia and Sunni did.

[Balu]

Then you miss the premise of posting on a message board. You present an argument AND you back it up.
I wouldn't put all my faith CNN. I'm not saying the news isn't fact, but how its presented is designed to lead you to believe a certain political point of view.
You see, there is a certain difference between us. You are able to get information only from your politically engaged English speaking mass media. As to me, I can speak to rebels and other Ukrainians who got a shelter from their civil war here in Russia. And there is another very important point - millions people here in Russia have their relatives there in Ukraine. It gives me opportunity to have a reliable, non politically engaged first-hand information.

[revelarts]

We didn't seek to rule in those cases. Bush would have been happy to leave Iraq, Libya? no, Panama? Teddy wanted a ditch, etc. I won't argue all of our efforts were the best, required, whatever but imperialism has a specific connotation which is absent here. We could have been the worst imperialist nation on earth but our efforts in rebuilding Asia, Europe after WWII better explains our efforts.

I said by an objective standard. and i gave the definition which includes influence
"or authority of an empire or nation over foreign countries,"
how many countries do we have to have dominate influence over before we can concede we may be sorta imperialist.
Even if it's "Catch and Release" sometimes?
Do presidents have to twirl their mustaches before we have the "specific connotation" in mind.
And I never said that America has never done any good. We've done great good from time to time.
I'm not talking about some cartoon star wars empire version of imperialism. The word imperialism doesn't exclude acts of real benevolence.

[fj1200]

^Well, if you want to be the one to define then I can't really argue now can I? :poke:


Imperialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism) is a type of advocacy of Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire). Its name originated from the Latin word "imperium", meaning to rule over large territories. Imperialism is "a policy of extending a country's power and influence through colonization, use of military force, or other means".[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism#cite_note-oxforddictionaries.com-2)Imperialism has greatly shaped the contemporary world.[3]
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism#cite_note-ReferenceA-3)The term imperialism has been applied to Western political and economic dominance in the 19th and 20th centuries, however its precise meaning continues to be debated by scholars.

[John V]

I remember perfectly well that the similar "sanctions" against China caused the rapid growth of their economy. The West has made the same mistake being in the world of own illusions. ("We have broken the Russian economy in tatters@ (c) President Obama)http://smayli.ru/data/smiles/smehs-302.gif (http://pozdravitel.ru/smajliki/) Russia is neither Iraq, nor Libya.

I don’t think people in the west fully understand the effect of ‘sanctions.’ Of course it damages trade and everyone suffers, the European farmers are also suffering with reverse sanctions, but my point to those who think you can destroy a people’s will by them is this. The Chinese will, if it comes to it, exist on a bowl of rice a day and come out fighting – I expect it’s the same with the Russians, they’ll just tighten their belts. Conversely, in the west it would equal a major life catastrophe if your favourite brand of cheerio’s wasn’t available and that would hurt.


The U.S. and EU introduce sanctions against Russia; Russia now sells oil and gas to China and Europe freezes. ‘We want the Ukraine to be an independent nation’? The EU and U.S. were already in there trying to do deals and get it into the EU before Putin arrived. Take away those oil pipelines and no one in the west would have raised an eyebrow or cared less what happened there.

[Gunny]

You see, there is a certain difference between us. You are able to get information only from your politically engaged English speaking mass media. As to me, I can speak to rebels and other Ukrainians who got a shelter from their civil war here in Russia. And there is another very important point - millions people here in Russia have their relatives there in Ukraine. It gives me opportunity to have a reliable, non politically engaged first-hand information.

What does THAT have to do with anything? Another thing about posting ... trying sticking to a topic. My comment was based solely on yours about CNN.

So, based the premise of your statement, I know more about the Middle East and US politics, right? I'm a retired US Marine, and I still talk to Marines all the time. I've got plenty of time deployed to the Middle East and Africa.

You and the other Russian seem to have come on this board to defend Putin, and what's going on in the Ukraine. I could care less about either. But when you drag the subject up, my opinion will remain the same: Putin is a Cold War KGB thug and Ukraine is a war of aggression.

Your argument that there are millions of Russians in the Ukraine is the SAME EXACT argument Hitler made when he occupied the Sudetenland.


I don’t think people in the west fully understand the effect of ‘sanctions.’ Of course it damages trade and everyone suffers, the European farmers are also suffering with reverse sanctions, but my point to those who think you can destroy a people’s will by them is this. The Chinese will, if it comes to it, exist on a bowl of rice a day and come out fighting – I expect it’s the same with the Russians, they’ll just tighten their belts. Conversely, in the west it would equal a major life catastrophe if your favourite brand of cheerio’s wasn’t available and that would hurt.


The U.S. and EU introduce sanctions against Russia; Russia now sells oil and gas to China and Europe freezes. ‘We want the Ukraine to be an independentnation’? The EU and U.S. were already in there trying to do deals and get it into the EU before Putin arrived. Take away those oil pipelines and no one in the west would have raised an eyebrow or cared less what happened there.


Again, a broad judgment based on no actual knowledge. You should spend less time telling others what they are and more time listening. Your success at whatever you do WHERE YOU ARE has led to the same arrogance you are accusing everyone else of.

[Balu]

The U.S. and EU introduce sanctions against Russia; Russia now sells oil and gas to China and Europe freezes. ‘We want the Ukraine to be an independentnation’? The EU and U.S. were already in there trying to do deals and get it into the EU before Putin arrived. Take away those oil pipelines and no one in the west would have raised an eyebrow or cared less what happened there.

I don't think that Boeing, NASA, BMW, Mercedes and many others share this point of view. It may sound strange, but USA increased their foreign trade turnover with Russia just after implementation of this "sanctions"/ It is strange. Isn't it? http://smayli.ru/data/smiles/podmigivaniya-118.gif (http://pozdravitel.ru/smajliki/)

[John V]

Again, a broad judgment based on no actual knowledge. You should spend less time telling others what they are and more time listening. Your success at whatever you do WHERE YOU ARE has led to the same arrogance you are accusing everyone else of.

Yes, but apart from that fine speech, have you got anything to say about the post itself?




I don't think that Boeing, NASA, BMW, Mercedes and many others share this point of view. It may sound strange, but USA increased their foreign trade turnover with Russia just after implementation of this "sanctions"/ It is strange. Isn't it? http://smayli.ru/data/smiles/podmigivaniya-118.gif (http://pozdravitel.ru/smajliki/)

They did? That's something I wasn't aware of.

[fj1200]

I don't think that Boeing, NASA, BMW, Mercedes and many others share this point of view. It may sound strange, but USA increased their foreign trade turnover with Russia just after implementation of this "sanctions"/ It is strange. Isn't it? http://smayli.ru/data/smiles/podmigivaniya-118.gif (http://pozdravitel.ru/smajliki/)

What is this of which you speak?

[John V]

I think a solution might be just to put you on ignore gunny. You've obviously nothing to say of any value. It's a little late for that tonight, so have your little rant, stamp your foot and I'll do it in the morning.

[Polite Russian]

Again, a broad judgment based on no actual knowledge. You should spend less time telling others what they are and more time listening. Your success at whatever you do WHERE YOU ARE has led to the same arrogance you are accusing everyone else of.

Well. I came here to talk with Americans. Not to defend mr. Putin. Users asked me about Putin and I gave my answer. But you started to judge my opinion and blame me on (at, about, in.... How to say?) "russian propaganda". This is not propaganda. I m not going to convince you. Just my opinion and NOTHING ELSE.

Btw, can I talk to you about you service in marine corps? I really like you, guys ) mb in Skype?

[Gunny]

Well. I came here to talk with Americans. Not to defend mr. Putin. Users asked me about Putin and I gave my answer. But you started to judge my opinion and blame me on (at, about, in.... How to say?) "russian propaganda". This is not propaganda. I m not going to convince you. Just my opinion and NOTHING ELSE.

Btw, can I talk to you about you service in marine corps? I really like you, guys ) mb in Skype?

Let me put this in perspective for you ....

I made a comment about Obama and you went on a tear defending Putin which had NOTHING to do with what I posted. I could be wrong, but I really think no one on this board cares about Putin, nor the Ukraine. Your first mistake might be assuming all Americans think alike when we're as divided in this country as the Middle East is.

Obama should have kept his nose out. None of our business. Then he lets Putin embarrass him.

Oh, and I know plenty about Russian propaganda. We used to have to read that crap during the Cold War. You guys got some vivid imaginations.

[revelarts]

^Well, if you want to be the one to define then I can't really argue now can I? :poke:
arrgh, see that's not fair dude. you know i didn't make up the definition..

And yeah your definitions works to
""a policy of extending a country's power and influence through colonization, use of military force, or other means"

so yeah America!! BABY!! yeah yeAHHHH!
:tank::helicopter::tank3::soldier99::soldier99::so ldier99::bluegun::gunner3::gunner2::gunner4:
:salute:

[Balu]

Your argument that there are millions of Russians in the Ukraine is the SAME EXACT argument Hitler made when he occupied the Sudetenland.

First - I am not intended to convince in anything.
As to Sudets. There is a smal difference. 2 million rebels run from the Civil war NOT to other parties of Ukraine, but to Russia, the country you use to call "aggressor"
Doesn't it seem strange, that there are diplomatic relations, air and railway regular communication, foreign trade relations between our counties and Ukrainians keep on claiming for discounts for gas. That they remain a member of CIS and continue to enjoy all the benefits of their membership. That they announced the fifth mobilizations and didn't implement a martial law.
You are a former serviceman, so you are able to imaging what could have happened should Russia start fighting against Ukraine. (In 2008 Georgians had an experience how to fight against Russian Army defending our peace-keepers. )
You mast have heard that Russia has Air Forces, armed forces, tactical and cruising missiles, airborne troops and can imaging what they are able to do supplied by space reconnaissance data.
You must also have the idea about tactics, having an examples of USA Army in Yugoslavia, Libya and Iraq.
So, what are you speaking about? http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/dntknw.gif

[fj1200]

arrgh, see that's not fair dude. you know i didn't make up the definition..

And yeah your definitions works to
""a policy of extending a country's power and influence through colonization, use of military force, or other means"

so yeah America!! BABY!! yeah yeAHHHH!

You didn't but it's your expansion that I dispute. :)


1. the policy of extending the rule or authority of an empire (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/empire) or nation over foreign countries, or of acquiring and holding colonies anddependencies.2. advocacy of imperial (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/imperial) or sovereign interests over the interests of the dependent states.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/imperialism

I don't see us in that.

[Balu]

What is this of which you speak?
Russian titanium for Boeing, rocket engines for NASA, capacious and solvent Russian market for Mercedes, BMW etc. :)

[fj1200]

Russian titanium for Boeing, rocket engines for NASA, capacious and solvent Russian market for Mercedes, BMW etc. :)

I don't think the sanctions cover those items... yet.


There are growing concerns that Western jobs are now at real risk if sanctions continue or are increased. Companies like Boeing (http://data.cnbc.com/quotes/BA), which uses Russian titanium, or General Electric (http://data.cnbc.com/quotes/GE), which leases aircraft to Russian airlines, may see profits dented by sanctions.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101518255


With the U.S. ratcheting up Russian sanctions in response to Vladimir Putin's unrepentant assault on Ukraine, word comes that U.S. manufacturers Boeing and United Technologies are building up aerospace-grade titanium stocks from their key supplier in Russia. Given that Russia's VSMPO-Avisma is, as the Wall Street Journal reports, a subsidiary of Rostec, the government-owned defense conglomerate whose CEO Sergei Chemezov (in the 1980s, he and former KGB officer Vladimir Putin lived in the same apartment building in East Germany) is on the U.S. sanctions list -- stocking up on titanium parts isn't a bad idea.
http://www.realclearworld.com/articles/2014/08/12/how_long_can_the_us_rely_on_russian_titanium.html

Not really strange.

[Gunny]

First - I am not intended to convince in anything.
As to Sudets. There is a smal difference. 2 million rebels run from the Civil war NOT to other parties of Ukraine, but to Russia, the country you use to call "aggressor"
Doesn't it seem strange, that there are diplomatic relations, air and railway regular communication, foreign trade relations between our counties and Ukrainians keep on claiming for discounts for gas. That they remain a member of CIS and continue to enjoy all the benefits of their membership. That they announced the fifth mobilizations and didn't implement a martial law.
You are a former serviceman, so you are able to imaging what could have happened should Russia start fighting against Ukraine. (In 2008 Georgians had an experience how to fight against Russian Army defending our peace-keepers. )
You mast have heard that Russia has Air Forces, armed forces, tactical and cruising missiles, airborne troops and can imaging what they are able to do supplied by space reconnaissance data.
You must also have the idea about tactics, having an examples of USA Army in Yugoslavia, Libya and Iraq.
So, what are you speaking about? http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/dntknw.gif

Then why are you here? If not to convince others of your beliefs? That IS the point to message boards.

Russia is the aggressor. They're arming the pro-Russian side to oust the anti-Russian side. It's not that hard to figure out. They're called proxy wars. The US arms S Vietnam and Russia and China arm N Vietnam. Putin arms pro-Russian Ukranians and Obama arms anti-Russian Ukranians. So yeah, I understand strategy and tactics REAL well.

Russia itself, as a nation, is not going to launch a war of aggression against the Ukraine for fear of international reprisal. Are you sure you got all that military stuff left? Seems to me your government's making a lot of money selling a lot of high tech weaponry to Third World , irresponsible clowns.

But you're defending, and trying to sell something to the WRONG political side here. We had NO business in Yugoslavia -- which was a UN force, not US -- and I could care less about the Ukraine. And in BOTH cases, a Democratic President has involved us in someone else's wars. Presidents Clinton and Obama. Take a hard look around this message board and see how many people you find that supported either of them.

[Polite Russian]

Let me put this in perspective for you ....

I made a comment about Obama and you went on a tear defending Putin which had NOTHING to do with what I posted. I could be wrong, but I really think no one on this board cares about Putin, nor the Ukraine. Your first mistake might be assuming all Americans think alike when we're as divided in this country as the Middle East is.

Obama should have kept his nose out. None of our business. Then he lets Putin embarrass him.

Oh, and I know plenty about Russian propaganda. We used to have to read that crap during the Cold War. You guys got some vivid imaginations.


Goddamn! Screw the Cold War! I did not even existed when it ends.
I'm trying to start a normal dialog with you here. Or normal dialog is russian propaganda too?

[Gunny]

Goddamn! Screw the Cold War! I did not even existed when it ends.
I'm trying to start a normal dialog with you here. Or normal dialog is russian propaganda too?

I WAS alive during the height of the Cold War. There is no "screw the Cold War" because it is DIRECTLY affecting what is happening now. President Reagan outspent the USSR on military weapons technology, weaponry and manpower until the Soviet economy could not sustain itself.

As a result, all of these little Russian satellite countries and provinces started announcing their independence and the Soviet Union fell apart. Unfortunately, along with losing the satellite countries Stalin had occupied during WWII, Russia had to deal with traditional Russian provinces like the Ukraine and Georgia demanding independence too and Russia let them go.

All of THAT is a direct result of the Cold War.

[Balu]

Russia is the aggressor. They're arming the pro-Russian side to oust the anti-Russian side. It's not that hard to figure out.
Do you know the meaning of the term "aggression"? - I don't think so. :(
Russia is thick and tired asking to provide data of supplying armament to Donetsk and Lugansk - no result. You must know that it is IMPOSSIBLE to move tanks, artillery and other military items without being caught by space reconnaissance. You are not a hose-keeper, but a former serviceman and you know this.
I am here to answer the questions from the points I see it.
And don't overestimate my modest abilities to compete with your propaganda machine. Be realistic. :)

[Polite Russian]

I WAS alive during the height of the Cold War. There is no "screw the Cold War" because it is DIRECTLY affecting what is happening now. President Reagan outspent the USSR on military weapons technology, weaponry and manpower until the Soviet economy could not sustain itself.

As a result, all of these little Russian satellite countries and provinces started announcing their independence and the Soviet Union fell apart. Unfortunately, along with losing the satellite countries Stalin had occupied during WWII, Russia had to deal with traditional Russian provinces like the Ukraine and Georgia demanding independence too and Russia let them go.

All of THAT is a direct result of the Cold War.


So because of cold war you have something against me, because I support my president, who save my country, raise economic, army and so on? Why cant you talk like normal person. I did nothing bad to you. Dont be so agressive pls. We are trying to have a good conversation here. If you dont want to know position of REAL russian people - dont read and dont go on this tread. Whats your problem, bro?

[Gunny]

So because of cold war you have something against me, because I support my president, who save my country, raise economic, army and so on? Why cant you talk like normal person. I did nothing bad to you. Dont be so agressive pls. We are trying to have a good conversation here. If you dont want to know position of REAL russian people - dont read and dont go on this tread. Whats your problem, bro?

You're reading between the lines. I have nothing against you. Don't start playing victim. How you read that I don't like you out of my statement about the Cold War beats me.

I'm a United States Marine. Aggression is the name of my game. If YOU don't like it, then YOU don't have to get on the thread. Meaning, you don't tell people where and what to post here.

I'm not picking on you because you're Russian. Rather, because you have yet to address anything that's posted to you. You pick out a word or phrase from an entire post and go off onto an entirely different subject. And when all else fails, a post like THIS one ... playing victim.

[Polite Russian]

You're reading between the lines. I have nothing against you. Don't start playing victim. How you read that I don't like you out of my statement about the Cold War beats me.

I'm a United States Marine. Aggression is the name of my game. If YOU don't like it, then YOU don't have to get on the thread. Meaning, you don't tell people where and what to post here.

I'm not picking on you because you're Russian. Rather, because you have yet to address anything that's posted to you. You pick out a word or phrase from an entire post and go off onto an entirely different subject. And when all else fails, a post like THIS one ... playing victim.




"Aggression is the name of my game."
Ooookaaaaaaaaay. Sooooooooooooo pathos and brutal.
Ok, think whatever you want, mr. Marine.

[Gunny]

So because of cold war you have something against me, because I support my president, who save my country, raise economic, army and so on? Why cant you talk like normal person. I did nothing bad to you. Dont be so agressive pls. We are trying to have a good conversation here. If you dont want to know position of REAL russian people - dont read and dont go on this tread. Whats your problem, bro?

What you are failing to see because you're so busy trying to pint me as a bad guy is the reality of my argument:

At the end of the Cold War, when the USSR was weak militarily and economically, they let these countries go. To include several traditional Russian provinces. The World was quick to recognize their independence as sovereign nations. Once they are recognized on the world stage as sovereign nations, Russia can't just go take them back.

That is simple geo-political math and has nothing to do with you personally.

[Gunny]

"Aggression is the name of my game."
Ooookaaaaaaaaay. Sooooooooooooo pathos and brutal.
Ok, think whatever you want, mr. Marine.

I do. I can address a topic without taking everything personally. I can address a topic with logic and fact; which, I have done.

Here's the thing .... you come to this board and expect everyone to just accept what you say because you say it. You have yet to address a topic and seem to want to make everything personal.

Now if you think THIS is being aggressive with you, you might want to talk to a few other members about me and being aggressive. This is fucking nice. Don't push it.

Now, why don't you try addressing my comments in regard to Russia and the situation you are in, instead of spending all your time looking to be offended and ignoring the topic?

[Balu]

I'm a United States Marine. Aggression is the name of my game. If YOU don't like it, then YOU don't have to get on the thread. Meaning, you don't tell people where and what to post here.

It sounds very strange, bearing in mind that HE opened this thread. Doesn't it? http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/scratch_one-s_head.gif

[Gunny]

It sounds very strange, bearing in mind that HE opened this thread. Doesn't it? http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/scratch_one-s_head.gif

Yes, he did. And once posted on the board, it is the intellectual property of the board, not his, and any member is allowed to respond. None of my responses have been inappropriate. I'm responding to his posts and he's becoming personally offended by cherry-picking words and missing the entire point of my posts. He has YET to actually respond to points I have made.

Posting on a political message board is not a one-way street. You don't get to just say what you want and that's the end of it. You open up a conversation and people are going to voice their opinions.

The fact is, Polite Russian doesn't know what he's talking about. He knows what he believes NOW. He doesn't know why, nor the history that led to this point. If I know more about Russian history than a Russian, I'd say he's out of his depth.

[darin]

Have not visited St petersburg - but in moscow i saw a shockingly-high concentration of beautiful women unlike tokyo, seoul, NYC, berlin or even Paris.

[Balu]

Really reported conversation between the Spaniards and the Americans at a frequency of "extreme situations in the sea" navigation channel 106 in the Strait Finisterra (Galicia). October 16, 1997

Spanish: (interference in the background) ... says the A-853, please turn 15 degrees to the south to avoid a collision with us. You move directly to us, distance 25 nautical miles.

Americans: (noise in the background) ... we advise you to turn 15 degrees to the north to avoid a collision with us.

Spanish: The answer is no. We repeat, turn 15 degrees to the south of
to avoid collision.

The Americans (another voice): With you is the captain of the ship of the United States. Turn 15 degrees to the north to avoid a collision.

Spanish: We do not consider your suggestion neither feasible nor appropriate, we advise you to turn 15 degrees to the south to avoid crashing into us.

The Americans (in a raised voice) to talk to you CAPTAIN RICHARD JAMES HOWARD, COMMANDER aircraft carrier USS LINCOLN, NAVY UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, THE SECOND TO GREATNESS US Navy warships. We were accompanied by two cruisers, six fighters, 4 SUBMARINES, and numerous support ships. I'm not a "Council", I "I ORDER" CHANGE YOUR COURSE 15 degrees to the north. OTHERWISE we will have to take the necessary measures for the security of our ship. PLEASE Immediately remove With our course !!!!

Spanish :: Are you Juan Manuel Salas says Alcantara. We were 2 people. We are escorted by our dog, dinner, 2 bottles of beer and a canary that's asleep. We are supported by the radio station "Cadena Dial de La Coruna" and channel 106 "Extreme situations at sea." We're not going anywhere collapse, given that we are on the land and is a beacon of A-853 Strait Finisterra Galician coast of Spain. We do not have a clue what place we occupy the largest among Spanish lighthouses. You can take all fucked ... nye measures as you deem necessary and do anything to ensure the safety of your ship eb..go that shatter on the rocks. So once again strongly recommend that you
make the most sensible thing to change your course 15 degrees to the south to avoid a collision.

Americans: Ok, accepted, thank you.

[Gunny]

Have not visited St petersburg - but in moscow i saw a shockingly-high concentration of beautiful women unlike tokyo, seoul, NYC, berlin or even Paris.

NYC goes without saying. :laugh:

[Balu]

NYC goes without saying. :laugh:
Where? http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/blush2.gif

[Gunny]

Really reported conversation between the Spaniards and the Americans at a frequency of "extreme situations in the sea" navigation channel 106 in the Strait Finisterra (Galicia). October 16, 1997

Spanish: (interference in the background) ... says the A-853, please turn 15 degrees to the south to avoid a collision with us. You move directly to us, distance 25 nautical miles.

Americans: (noise in the background) ... we advise you to turn 15 degrees to the north to avoid a collision with us.

Spanish: The answer is no. We repeat, turn 15 degrees to the south of
to avoid collision.

The Americans (another voice): With you is the captain of the ship of the United States. Turn 15 degrees to the north to avoid a collision.

Spanish: We do not consider your suggestion neither feasible nor appropriate, we advise you to turn 15 degrees to the south to avoid crashing into us.

The Americans (in a raised voice) to talk to you CAPTAIN RICHARD JAMES HOWARD, COMMANDER aircraft carrier USS LINCOLN, NAVY UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, THE SECOND TO GREATNESS US Navy warships. We were accompanied by two cruisers, six fighters, 4 SUBMARINES, and numerous support ships. I'm not a "Council", I "I ORDER" CHANGE YOUR COURSE 15 degrees to the north. OTHERWISE we will have to take the necessary measures for the security of our ship. PLEASE Immediately remove With our course !!!!

Spanish :: Are you Juan Manuel Salas says Alcantara. We were 2 people. We are escorted by our dog, dinner, 2 bottles of beer and a canary that's asleep. We are supported by the radio station "Cadena Dial de La Coruna" and channel 106 "Extreme situations at sea." We're not going anywhere collapse, given that we are on the land and is a beacon of A-853 Strait Finisterra Galician coast of Spain. We do not have a clue what place we occupy the largest among Spanish lighthouses. You can take all fucked ... nye measures as you deem necessary and do anything to ensure the safety of your ship eb..go that shatter on the rocks. So once again strongly recommend that you
make the most sensible thing to change your course 15 degrees to the south to avoid a collision.

Americans: Ok, accepted, thank you.

That's kind of funny, but it never happened. The comment by the American Captain violates a whole lot of communications protocol, and the Captain of a US aircraft carrier is NOT going to get on the comm with a pilot. It just doesn't work that way.

Iranian Defense site: Unknown aircraft, you are in Iranian airspace, Identify yourself.

Aircraft: This is a United States aircraft. I am in Iraqi airspace.

Air Defense Site: You are in IRANIAN airspace. If you do not depart our airspace, we will launch interceptor aircraft.

Aircraft: This is a United States Marine Corps FA-18 fighter. Send 'em up. I'll wait.

Got to take it all for what it's worth.


Where? http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/blush2.gif

New York City. NYC.

[Balu]

That's kind of funny, but it never happened.
Unfortunately you did not understand the meaning of a joke. Sorry. :(


New York City. NYC.
I know. It was a joke, Mr. Marine. Try to find out another sense in my question. :)

[Gunny]

Unfortunately you did not understand the meaning of a joke. Sorry. :(

Sure I did. The problem with jokes like that is I look at them from the point of view of a Marine Gunnery Sergeant. I DO get the intent. There's no problem.

[Gunny]

I know. It was a joke, Mr. Marine. Try to find out another sense in my question. :)

Well, unfortunately, training is everything. I know where Moscow is, and St Petersburg. NYC is a foreign country to me, and if you want to adopt those idiots, I'll sign the papers. And throw Chicago and LA in as a bonus. :laugh:

You know, I learned a lot from this Sgt in SPEZNAZ about all this crap. Especially some of the BS y'all think about us. :laugh: Contrary to popular belief, we won't crawl 2 miles through sewage to rape your wife and kill your mother. :laugh:

[Abbey Marie]

NYC goes without saying. :laugh:


Hey!


Goddamn! Screw the Cold War! I did not even existed when it ends.
I'm trying to start a normal dialog with you here. Or normal dialog is russian propaganda too?

i would enjoy a dialog. Is there anything you would like to ask us? Seems all the questions are going to you. l'll do my best to answer. :cool:

[aboutime]

Really reported conversation between the Spaniards and the Americans at a frequency of "extreme situations in the sea" navigation channel 106 in the Strait Finisterra (Galicia). October 16, 1997

Spanish: (interference in the background) ... says the A-853, please turn 15 degrees to the south to avoid a collision with us. You move directly to us, distance 25 nautical miles.

Americans: (noise in the background) ... we advise you to turn 15 degrees to the north to avoid a collision with us.

Spanish: The answer is no. We repeat, turn 15 degrees to the south of
to avoid collision.

The Americans (another voice): With you is the captain of the ship of the United States. Turn 15 degrees to the north to avoid a collision.

Spanish: We do not consider your suggestion neither feasible nor appropriate, we advise you to turn 15 degrees to the south to avoid crashing into us.

The Americans (in a raised voice) to talk to you CAPTAIN RICHARD JAMES HOWARD, COMMANDER aircraft carrier USS LINCOLN, NAVY UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, THE SECOND TO GREATNESS US Navy warships. We were accompanied by two cruisers, six fighters, 4 SUBMARINES, and numerous support ships. I'm not a "Council", I "I ORDER" CHANGE YOUR COURSE 15 degrees to the north. OTHERWISE we will have to take the necessary measures for the security of our ship. PLEASE Immediately remove With our course !!!!

Spanish :: Are you Juan Manuel Salas says Alcantara. We were 2 people. We are escorted by our dog, dinner, 2 bottles of beer and a canary that's asleep. We are supported by the radio station "Cadena Dial de La Coruna" and channel 106 "Extreme situations at sea." We're not going anywhere collapse, given that we are on the land and is a beacon of A-853 Strait Finisterra Galician coast of Spain. We do not have a clue what place we occupy the largest among Spanish lighthouses. You can take all fucked ... nye measures as you deem necessary and do anything to ensure the safety of your ship eb..go that shatter on the rocks. So once again strongly recommend that you
make the most sensible thing to change your course 15 degrees to the south to avoid a collision.

Americans: Ok, accepted, thank you.



Too bad, but it's a really, really Old Joke. I first heard another version of that back in the 60's after I joined the navy. It involved a battleship, and a lighthouse.
It's only funny to those who have never heard it more than Once.

[Jeff]

Have not visited St petersburg - but in moscow i saw a shockingly-high concentration of beautiful women unlike tokyo, seoul, NYC, berlin or even Paris.

Thank you, finally someone answered the important question !!!

[darin]

Thank you, finally someone answered the important question !!!

And did you SEE Bradley Cooper's shiney new russian girlfriend?

wow.

http://www.si.com/swimsuit/2015/assets/images/2015/videos/3850898974001.jpg

[Jeff]

Too bad, but it's a really, really Old Joke. I first heard another version of that back in the 60's after I joined the navy. It involved a battleship, and a lighthouse.
It's only funny to those who have never heard it more than Once.

Yes I have heard many versions as well, although it is funny ( if you had one to many ) yes it loses a lot of the funniness after the first time.

[Abbey Marie]

http://randomcelebs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Bradley-Cooper-Body-28.jpg


http://veryaware.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/american-sniper-618x400.jpg

Not sure which pic is hotter...

[Jeff]

And did you SEE Bradley Cooper's shiney new russian girlfriend?

wow.

http://www.si.com/swimsuit/2015/assets/images/2015/videos/3850898974001.jpg

Dam, if she wants to share a house y'all can call me Comrade. :laugh:


http://randomcelebs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Bradley-Cooper-Body-28.jpg


http://veryaware.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/american-sniper-618x400.jpg

Not sure which pic is hotter...

Abbey although I loved the movie that isn't a Russian female, do we need a talk in private again young lady ? :laugh:

[Abbey Marie]

Abbey although I loved the movie that isn't a Russian female, do we need a talk in private again young lady ? :laugh:

:laugh:

[Drummond]

What the "war on terror" was meant to do is something we won't agree on either.
concerning Zarqawi

you might want to read the article the bits about Zarqawi and Bin Ladens meeting will interest you.



The Al Iraqi item you mention is interesting. I can't "explain it" but it doesn't really prove an official Iraq or Saddam connection.
was Major Al Iraqi a defector from Iraq ? a spy still loyal to Saddam? or an official operative of Iraq? the clip doesn't say. I'm not sure i should assume anything more than
A former Iraqi Military man decided to work for AQ.
But there are people from nearly every M.E. country that have join AQ. some from the UK and the U.S. as well.

If you want to see someone else interesting check out this article. U.S. citizen Eyptian agent and AQ lt. Ali Mohamed arrested but "disappeared" from federal custody
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Al-Qaeda-terrorist-worked-with-FBI-Ex-Silicon-2861719.php

and also on this "war on terror" have we attacked Saudi Arabia and taken over that country? Since they had the MOST ties to 911 and harbored, trained and financed more terrorist and also is the seat of the most vile and aggressive form of Islam?!

no?

http://www.melaniephillips.com/the-saddam-al-qaeda-link


To the anti-war lobby, it was cause for jubilation. 'No Qa'eda-Iraq tie', crowed The New York Times. 'White House misled the world over Saddam', exulted our own Independent. And presidential candidate Senator John Kerry claimed that the Bush administration had 'misled America over the need for war'.

The excitement was over a preliminary assessment of evidence about al-Qa'eda by the US commission investigating September 11. The only problem was that the press coverage was untrue. The report does not rule out links between Saddam Hussein and al-Qa'eda. On the contrary, as the commission's chairman, Thomas Kean, confirmed: 'There were contacts between Iraq and al-Qa'eda, a number of them, some of them a little shadowy. They were definitely there.'


As so often in the coverage of Iraq, those who make the (illogical) claim that there was no such contact and therefore no cause for war saw in this report only what they wanted to see.


They read the words: 'We have no credible evidence that Iraq and al-Qa'eda co-operated', and claimed official confirmation that no links had existed. But the report actually says: 'We have no credible evidence that Iraq and al-Qa'eda co-operated on attacks upon the United States' - not that they never dealt with each other. On the contrary, it says they did deal with each other, particularly in Sudan.


In any event, the report is hardly authoritative. For it also quotes two bin Laden associates denying any ties between al-Qa'eda and Iraq. It thus contradicts itself. It also dismisses the suspicion that the September 11 hijacker Mohammed Atta met an Iraqi intelligence agent in Prague, simply because his mobile phone was then being used Florida. But clearly, someone else might have been using it.


The main question, though, is why it devoted only one paragraph to the Saddam/al-Qa'eda link and ignored most the evidence amassed by Stephen Hayes in his recent book, The Connection. For while none of this is conclusive, it makes a powerful case.


Take, for example, the original indictment of bin Laden by the US Justice Department in spring 1998, which stated: '. . . al-Qa'eda reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al-Qa'eda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al-Qa'eda would work co-operatively with the Government of Iraq.'


Pretty authoritative, you might think? Yet it is not even mentioned. Or take this evidence from the former CIA director George Tenet: 'We have solid reporting of senior level contacts between Iraq and Al Qa'eda going back a decade. Credible information indicates that Iraq and Al Qa'eda have discussed safe haven and reciprocal non-aggression. We have credible reporting that Al Qa'eda leaders sought contacts in Iraq who could help them acquire WMD capabilities. Iraq has provided training to Al Qa'eda members in the areas of poisons and gases and making conventional bombs.'

On Saudi Arabia: last I heard, that country was fighting Al Qaeda. Regardless of any unofficial help individuals might've given Al Qaeda, officially, they are adversaries.


Goddamn! Screw the Cold War! I did not even existed when it ends.


Polite Russian, I thoroughly appreciate that sentiment.

My concern is that it's not shared by the Russian leadership. My firm belief is that, unless Putin changes course, and especially if he tries some new outrage against a Sovereign State that was once part of the USSR, his fondness for the 'glory days' will see him try and recreate its conditions.

Blind faith in that very individual only feeds his lust for power. Unfortunately.

[Gunny]

Thank you, finally someone answered the important question !!!


And did you SEE Bradley Cooper's shiney new russian girlfriend?

wow.

http://www.si.com/swimsuit/2015/assets/images/2015/videos/3850898974001.jpg


Yes I have heard many versions as well, although it is funny ( if you had one to many ) yes it loses a lot of the funniness after the first time.

Y'all need help. :laugh:


Polite Russian, I thoroughly appreciate that sentiment.

My concern is that it's not shared by the Russian leadership. My firm belief is that, unless Putin changes course, and especially if he tries some new outrage against a Sovereign State that was once part of the USSR, his fondness for the 'glory days' will see him try and recreate its conditions.

Blind faith in that very individual only feeds his lust for power. Unfortunately.

Ukraine was one of the founding members of the USSR during the October Revolution. Beware the monster you create, Frankenstein.

[Balu]

Moscow girl

http://sweet211.ru/images/news/a658c42947d45a0ce6ac31c2865bc2561.jpg

[Polite Russian]

Ukraine was one of the founding members of the USSR during the October Revolution. Beware the monster you create, Frankenstein.


well. Revolution was sponsored by Germans btw.
About frankenstein :)

[Balu]

And did you SEE Bradley Cooper's shiney new russian girlfriend?

wow.

http://www.si.com/swimsuit/2015/assets/images/2015/videos/3850898974001.jpg

Moscow girl

http://sweet211.ru/images/news/a658c42947d45a0ce6ac31c2865bc2561.jpg

Good morning!

http://cs616324.vk.me/v616324285/11246/QdWFIj0q5b4.jpg

Summer in Russia

http://mylitta.ru/uploads/posts/2014-08/1408522017_russian-beauty-5.jpg

Russian beauty.

http://nashaplaneta.su/_bl/183/33573365.jpg

http://www.kids-models.ru/data/blog/50326211ddeab.jpg

http://img1.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/c/3/77/698/77698953_11.jpg

http://gorod.tomsk.ru/posts-files/77/780/i/scharfegirlsausallerwelt_5.jpg

[Gunny]

well. Revolution was sponsored by Germans btw.
About frankenstein :)

The Revolution was made by disaffected Russian workers who were starving while Czar Nicholas lived like a king and spent a fortune fighting in WWI.

The Germans couldn't sponsor themselves at the time, much less anyone else. The Germans didn't lose WWI on the battlefield. They lost at home because they couldn't afford the war.

What about Frankenstein? A man who sought to create man in his own image, and created a monster that destroyed him instead.

[Balu]

*


The Revolution was made by disaffected Russian workers who were starving while Czar Nicholas lived like a king and spent a fortune fighting in WWI.

The Germans couldn't sponsor themselves at the time, much less anyone else. The Germans didn't lose WWI on the battlefield. They lost at home because they couldn't afford the war.

What about Frankenstein? A man who sought to create man in his own image, and created a monster that destroyed him instead.
I am sorry but it seems funny when a former US Marine starts teaching us lessons of the History of our country.
BTW, Ukraine joined USSR in 1922 while revolution occurred 5 years earlier - in 1917. :)

[Gunny]

I am sorry but it seems funny when a former US Marine starts teaching us lessons of the History of our country.
BTW, Ukraine joined USSR in 1922 while revolution occurred 5 years earlier - in 1917. :)

I find it even funnier that I need to. Just remember this ... your access to information has always been controlled. Mine never has. And I learned it from READING long before the internet came along.

I said the Ukraine was one of the founding members of the USSR. I did NOT say it was part of Russia's October Revolution.

[Polite Russian]

The Revolution was made by disaffected Russian workers who were starving while Czar Nicholas lived like a king and spent a fortune fighting in WWI.

The Germans couldn't sponsor themselves at the time, much less anyone else. The Germans didn't lose WWI on the battlefield. They lost at home because they couldn't afford the war.

What about Frankenstein? A man who sought to create man in his own image, and created a monster that destroyed him instead.


You are going to teach me my history?
emperor Nikolai did not live like a king at that time.

[aboutime]

You are going to teach me my history?
emperor Nikolai did not live like a king at that time.


Polite Russian. You should remember as you patronize us in your own ways.

Someone named George Santayana once said:

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

George Santayana (16 December 1863 in Madrid, Spain – 26 September 1952 in Rome, Italy) was a philosopher, essayist, poet and novelist.

[revelarts]

I am sorry but it seems funny when a former US Marine starts teaching us lessons of the History of our country.
BTW, Ukraine joined USSR in 1922 while revolution occurred 5 years earlier - in 1917. :)


You are going to teach me my history?
emperor Nikolai did not live like a king at that time.

Gunny claims he's read and learned a lot of stuff
but he can't seem to take time to find any reference for much of it though.

[Gunny]

You are going to teach me my history?
emperor Nikolai did not live like a king at that time.

Nah. I've already decided there's nothing you want to listen to. Czar Nicholas DID live like a king, when he wasn't running around playing toy soldier. He left his kingdom in the hands of Rasputin. Who, btw, if he was still alive, would probably be one of Obama's cabinet ministers.:laugh:

[Balu]

I find it even funnier that I need to. Just remember this ... your access to information has always been controlled. Mine never has. And I learned it from READING long before the internet came along.

I said the Ukraine was one of the founding members of the USSR. I did NOT say it was part of Russia's October Revolution.

It is good saying in Russia - It is written on the fence - "vagina". When I checked there was firewood.
I never suffered restrictions to access information, as there was a vast net of libraries in the USSR where you cold find original information. So, no need to fly in clouds of your common myths.
Once I happened to learn from YOUR sources of information that Americans took Berlin. http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/light_skin/lol.gif

[Gunny]

It is good saying in Russia - It is written on the fence - "vagina". When I checked there was firewood.
I never suffered restrictions to access information, as there was a vast net of libraries in the USSR where you cold find original information. So, no need to fly in clouds of your common myths.
Once I happened to learn from YOUR sources of information that Americans took Berlin. http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/light_skin/lol.gif

I don't do myths. I do facts. The USSR was one of the most repressive regimes in modern history. The only person to murder more of his own people than Hitler was Stalin.

[revelarts]

well. Revolution was sponsored by Germans btw.
About frankenstein :)


I am sorry but it seems funny when a former US Marine starts teaching us lessons of the History of our country.
BTW, Ukraine joined USSR in 1922 while revolution occurred 5 years earlier - in 1917. :)

Here's some information that's not widely share in any country.
I've skimmed it. it seems pretty well documented.


Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution: The Remarkable True Story of the American Capitalists Who Financed the Russian CommunistsWhy did the 1917 American Red Cross Mission to Russia include more financiers than medical doctors? Rather than caring for the victims of war and revolution, its members seemed more intent on negotiating contracts with the Kerensky government, and subsequently the Bolshevik regime. In a courageous investigation, Antony Sutton establishes tangible historical links between US capitalists and Russian communists. Drawing on State Department files, personal papers of key Wall Street figures, biographies and conventional histories, Sutton reveals: the role of Morgan banking executives in funneling illegal Bolshevik gold into the US; the co-option of the American Red Cross by powerful Wall Street forces; the intervention by Wall Street sources to free the Marxist revolutionary Leon Trotsky, whose aim was to topple the Russian government; the deals made by major corporations to capture the huge Russian market a decade and a half before the US recognized the Soviet regime; and, the secret sponsoring of Communism by leading businessmen, who publicly championed free enterprise. "Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution" traces the foundations of Western funding of the Soviet Union. Dispassionately, and with overwhelming documentation, the author details a crucial phase in the establishment of Communist Russia. This classic study - first published in 1974 and part of a key trilogy - is reproduced here in its original form. (The other volumes in the series include "Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler" and a study of Franklin D. Roosevelt's "1933 Presidential election in the United States").

http://www.amazon.com/Wall-Street-Bolshevik-Revolution-Capitalists/dp/190557035X

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3nDbJooPu0

[Balu]

Nah. I've already decided there's nothing you want to listen to. Czar Nicholas DID live like a king, when he wasn't running around playing toy soldier. He left his kingdom in the hands of Rasputin. Who, btw, if he was still alive, would probably be one of Obama's cabinet ministers.:laugh:
Maybe you are speaking about Tsar Peter III? But he ruled only half a year: December 1761 - July 1762. http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/dntknw.gif


Here's some information that's not widely share in any country.
I've skimmed it. it seems pretty well documented.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3nDbJooPu0
Thank you. but WE know this facts. If I am not mistaken they appeared in Russia somewhere in early 90th. http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/friends.gif


I don't do myths. I do facts. The USSR was one of the most repressive regimes in modern history. The only person to murder more of his own people than Hitler was Stalin.
You really DO facts, but don't know them. То know facts you should have the access to archives of GPU-NKVD-KGB, but you don't. So, the only thing you CAN speak about is estimations and assumptions. :)

[Drummond]

I don't do myths. I do facts. The USSR was one of the most repressive regimes in modern history. The only person to murder more of his own people than Hitler was Stalin.:clap::clap::clap:

Balu, you say ...


I never suffered restrictions to access information, as there was a vast net of libraries in the USSR where you cold find original information.
Can we test that ?

Tell us, then, how many of your people were murdered by Stalin, according to YOUR sources of information.

[Balu]

:clap::clap::clap:

Balu, you say ...


Can we test that ?

Tell us, then, how many of your people were murdered by Stalin, according to YOUR sources of information.
Please, read my post above. http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/smile3.gif

[Gunny]

You really DO facts, but don't know then. То know facts you should have the access to archives of GPU-NKVD-KGB, but you don't. So, the only thing you CAN speak about is estimations and assumptions. :)

You have no idea what I know. Which, is beside the point as far as history is concerned.

The fact is, I criticize my government all day every day. THAT is free speech. You and the other Russian seems to want to push an agenda here and it isn't selling. I've probably seen more classified material from the KGB than you have. And did I mention my father was fluent in 5 languages, yours being one of them? That's why I got to live in such "lovely" places as Turkey and Greece as a kid. His whole job was listening to YOUR communications.

But I have a question for you: Who are YOU that you have access to NKVD/KGB documentation? And what's your agenda here? To sell us on your war of aggression? You aren't going to sell me on it. At the same time, it's none of my business. And if Obama wants to make it HIS business, then he needs to grow some balls because Putin punked him out. Otherwise, and as usual, he needs to keep his mouth shut and try taking care of his job instead of trying to do everyone else's.

[revelarts]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaFklTLNy8c

[Balu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW9TSWegU60


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcbtEAKJcDs#t=28

[aboutime]

You really DO facts, but don't know them. То know facts you should have the access to archives of GPU-NKVD-KGB, but you don't. So, the only thing you CAN speak about is estimations and assumptions. :)


Balu. We, the members of this Forum, have been warned, and even scolded about NOT starting arguments here. So. Here you come. Sounding so Putin-like, expecting we the members to just accept you, and your claims without question?

This may come as a surprise to you. But, those of us here on this forum, and in other Online Forums are FAR MORE KNOWLEDGABLE as Americans than the other 99.9% of Uninformed Americans who easily FALL for the claims you are making here. Too bad for you, and your fellow Comrads from Russia who have recently become new members here. YOU are not fooling me, and probably no other members either.
Now...if I get scolded for making that statement to you. I fully expect it, and do not care.

[Balu]

Balu. We, the members of this Forum, have been warned, and even scolded about NOT starting arguments here. So. Here you come. Sounding so Putin-like, expecting we the members to just accept you, and your claims without question?

This may come as a surprise to you. But, those of us here on this forum, and in other Online Forums are FAR MORE KNOWLEDGABLE as Americans than the other 99.9% of Uninformed Americans who easily FALL for the claims you are making here. Too bad for you, and your fellow Comrades from Russia who have recently become new members here. YOU are not fooling me, and probably no other members either.
Now...if I get scolded for making that statement to you. I fully expect it, and do not care.
Thank you for your post. You see i NEVER start speaking politics. I am answering the questions the other raised.
I think politics is not a proper subject for this very forum. There are much more interesting things to speak about to get acquainted closer and to learn something new about each other.
As to politics one thing is true - Britain has no friends. Britain has interests. http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/friends.gif

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

It certainly is my choice to make and if I choose not to reply to who I decide are baiters, quoter’s or nit-pickers, that’s also my choice.

True, exceptionalism is either a widely held belief or not. Obama seems to think so and it’s a view shared by many. How do you justify ‘an open display of arrogance’? (Your words, not mine).

There was never a comparison between colonialization and monarchies. The comparison was between an exceptionalist mind-set during the British Empire and in your own words, a justifiable ‘open display of arrogance’, as an excuse for American intervention. You might think there’s a difference, but Britain’s former colonies and the countries America has interfered with don’t.

Of course you have a constitution and the UK has a monarchy. What’s your point?




Of course you have a constitution and the UK has a monarchy. What’s your point?

My point was that your comparing the two was weak and not very compelling to me. Additionally in America's case (Britain's as well to a lesser extent) you seem to have zeroed out all the positive contributions made.. the idea of freedom given to this dark world, all the sacrifices made (WW1, WW2) and all the advances in technology, science and medicine, etc.

As to my comment about the "attitude" of many Americans being so openly arrogant about American exceptionalism you missed the point as clearly your following question revealed and you failed to either prove or disprove that claim of American Exceptionalism that you so obviously rejected as false.-Tyr

[tailfins]

You really DO facts, but don't know them. То know facts you should have the access to archives of GPU-NKVD-KGB, but you don't. So, the only thing you CAN speak about is estimations and assumptions. :)

Information can be had by Russian immigrants to the USA, there's satellite images and much more. I have never heard a Jewish person say their life in Russia or the former Soviet Union was good.


Please, read my post above. http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/smile3.gif

I didn't see any numbers in your post above.

[Balu]

Information can be had by Russian immigrants to the USA, there's satellite images and much more. I have never heard a Jewish person say their life in Russia or the former Soviet Union was good.
So, WHY they've never have presented them as an evidence, though Minister Lavrov and President Putin asked for this? http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/dntknw.gif

An "Old Horse" turboprop AN-12 (Cub) at low level flight.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lFpLiM_4ks

Trike at low level flight.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-b1YnW_8h8

[Polite Russian]

Nah. I've already decided there's nothing you want to listen to. Czar Nicholas DID live like a king, when he wasn't running around playing toy soldier. He left his kingdom in the hands of Rasputin. Who, btw, if he was still alive, would probably be one of Obama's cabinet ministers.:laugh:


Ok, let's remember, that he was a king (emperor, czar). And he was forced to leave the empire. But I agree, that he may be not the best emperor.
____
russian orthodox church call him "saint".. Lol

[NightTrain]

That trike looks like a hell of a lot of fun. I've been thinking about getting one of those.

[John V]

My point was that your comparing the two was weak and not very compelling to me. Additionally in America's case (Britain's as well to a lesser extent) you seem to have zeroed out all the positive contributions made.. the idea of freedom given to this dark world, all the sacrifices made (WW1, WW2) and all the advances in technology, science and medicine, etc.

As to my comment about the "attitude" of many Americans being so openly arrogant about American exceptionalism you missed the point as clearly your following question revealed and you failed to either prove or disprove that claim of American Exceptionalism that you so obviously rejected as false.-Tyr



Don’t talk crap Tyr. Listen to Obama’s speeches on exceptionalism, they’re all over the internet. What do you want me to do, go and find them for you, package them and return here with the obvious? Stop your nit-picking and go and find out the information yourself!

[NightTrain]

Let us count. 81% participated, 97% voted "pro", Nazi illegitimate regime -junta is in Kiev, the majority of the population is Russians... in these circumstances the results are more than explainable.

Nazis in Kiev?

This is news to me.


Ever since Ukraine's February revolution, the Kremlin has characterised the new leaders in Kiev as a "fascist junta" made up of neo-Nazis and anti-Semites, set on persecuting, if not eradicating, the Russian-speaking population.

This is demonstrably false. Far-right parties failed to pass a 5% barrier to enter parliament, although if they had banded together, and not split their vote, they would have probably slipped past the threshold.


Only one government minister has links to nationalist parties - though he is in no way a neo-Nazi or fascist.

And the speaker of parliament, Volodymyr Groysman, is Jewish. He has the third most powerful position in the country after the president and prime minister.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30414955

Do you have any supporting links outlining a Nazi makeup in that government, other than Kremlin statements?

[Balu]

That trike looks like a hell of a lot of fun. I've been thinking about getting one of those.
Can you imaging that such trikes are able to get the maximum ceiling up to 6,000. And you are not inside. No doors, no floor but the benefit - turbulence. http://smayli.ru/data/smiles/strah-92.gif (http://pozdravitel.ru/smajliki/)

[Polite Russian]

Nazis in Kiev?

This is news to me.



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30414955

Do you have any supporting links outlining a Nazi makeup in that government, other than Kremlin statements?

They'r government call stepan bandera a hero of Ukraine. For example

Lol is that's true?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/05/27/pentagon-says-live-anthrax-inadvertently-shipped-across-us/

[NightTrain]

They'r government call stepan bandera a hero of Ukraine. For example

Not quite.


After the war, in 1959, in Munich, Germany, Bandera was assassinated by the KGB.


On 22 January 2010, the outgoing President of Ukraine Viktor Yushchenko awarded Bandera the posthumous title of Hero of Ukraine.

The award was condemned by European Parliament, Russian, Polish and Jewish organizations and was declared illegal by the following Ukrainian government and a court decision in April 2010.

In January 2011, the award was officially annulled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

So, Yushchenko pulled a stupid move as he left office that Ukraine was quick to remedy.

[Balu]

Nazis in Kiev?

This is news to me.

Do you have any supporting links outlining a Nazi makeup in that government, other than Kremlin statements?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxB6LLjkFrc

There you can see the portrait of Stepan Badera. You can find info about him. In Ukraine he is a National Hero - symbol of the Ukrainian independence.

http://tabletmag.com/scroll/165455/why-are-jews-so-afraid-of-stepan-bandera

[NightTrain]

Lol is that's true?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/05/27/pentagon-says-live-anthrax-inadvertently-shipped-across-us/


Sure looks like it!

Boneheads. There will be a few people fired for their incompetence, as well they should be.

[NightTrain]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxB6LLjkFrc

There you can see the portrait of Stepan Badera. You can find info about him. In Ukraine he is a National Hero - symbol of the Ukrainian independence.

http://tabletmag.com/scroll/165455/why-are-jews-so-afraid-of-stepan-bandera

See my response to Polite Russian, above.

You can't have a Nazi government with the 3rd most powerful man as a Jew. That's ridiculous.

Besides, the Ukrainians quickly reversed that award.

The only people claiming that Nazis run Kiev is unsupported Kremlin propaganda. If it were true, the entire planet would have headlines screaming about a Nazi government existing anywhere in the world in big, capitol letters. It would be a massive firestorm and the UN would be issuing condemnation after condemnation followed by 3,154 resolutions.

[Balu]

See my response to Polite Russian, above.

You can't have a Nazi government with the 3rd most powerful man as a Jew. That's ridiculous.

Besides, the Ukrainians quickly reversed that award.

The only people claiming that Nazis run Kiev is unsupported Kremlin propaganda. If it were true, the entire planet would have headlines screaming about a Nazi government existing anywhere in the world in big, capitol letters. It would be a massive firestorm and the UN would be issuing condemnation after condemnation followed by 3,154 resolutions.

The U.S. has Installed a Neo-Nazi Government in Ukraine

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554

[NightTrain]

The U.S. has Installed a Neo-Nazi Government in Ukraine

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554

lol, the nutjob at GlobalResearch also claims that the US knew in advance of an impending earthquake / tsunami in the Indian ocean - but we kept quiet about it because we love killing brown people.

Do yourself a favor, Balu, and never quote GlobalResearch. The guy is an assclown.

[Balu]

Nazism of Ukraine’s Western-Backed Government Is Hidden by Western ‘News’ Media

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/05/nazism-of-ukraines-western-backed-government-is-hidden-by-western-news-media.html

Ukraine’s neo-Nazi Leader "Top Military Adviser to KIEV Gov" Legalizes Nazi Fighters.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNjHNH-WKBc

[NightTrain]

Nazism of Ukraine’s Western-Backed Government Is Hidden by Western ‘News’ Media

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/05/nazism-of-ukraines-western-backed-government-is-hidden-by-western-news-media.html

Balu, that's a blog.

If you're going to back up your statements, it's generally best to use a professional news organization.

This guy's paranoid rantings on his blog does nothing to support your claim of a Nazi government in Kiev.

[Balu]

lol, the nutjob at GlobalResearch also claims that the US knew in advance of an impending earthquake / tsunami in the Indian ocean - but we kept quiet about it because we love killing brown people.

Do yourself a favor, Balu, and never quote GlobalResearch. The guy is an assclown.
The USA stated that they invested 5 billion dollars into "democracy" in Ukraine. Nowadays we can see the results. Fruit is ripe.
The same results we can see in the other countries where US struggled for "democracy"

http://www.dw.de/the-odessa-file-what-happened-on-may-2-2014/a-18425200