What really killed Christ?

[DragonStryk72]

and satan equals sin, so there you have it

Actually, that's a little bit too simple. You see, while Satan is evil, he does not control all of our actions. We have free will, otherwise we would not be accountable for our own thoughts and actions. To make Satan be responsible for every single evil that humans do diminishes the gift of free will that god gave us.

People have more than enough capacity for both the greatest good, and the greatest evil, to do both without the intervention of god, or the devil.

[Yurt]

A little late to the chaos, but if I were to venture to guess, I would have to say He stopped breathing. That's a sure fire way to get yourself dead. As for Yurt killing Christ....





































SINNER!

my handbasket to hell has room for one more....

[82Marine89]

my handbasket to hell has room for one more....

LOL

[Yurt]

Actually, that's a little bit too simple. You see, while Satan is evil, he does not control all of our actions. We have free will, otherwise we would not be accountable for our own thoughts and actions. To make Satan be responsible for every single evil that humans do diminishes the gift of free will that god gave us.

People have more than enough capacity for both the greatest good, and the greatest evil, to do both without the intervention of god, or the devil.

my understanding from the bible is that satan can indeed control our thoughts and actions...paul described a daily battle....if we let him. it would be remiss of anyone to claim that anything about sin is "simple", it is so complex that God had to sacrifice his own Son...for sin...that lucifer first started and is the "prince" of, so saying that satan equals sin is, IMO, quite accurate.

[DragonStryk72]

my understanding from the bible is that satan can indeed control our thoughts and actions...paul described a daily battle....if we let him. it would be remiss of anyone to claim that anything about sin is "simple", it is so complex that God had to sacrifice his own Son...for sin...that lucifer first started and is the "prince" of, so saying that satan equals sin is, IMO, quite accurate.

As you yourself just said, if we let him in, if we give him control. He does not, therefore, "control" our actions, as we can as well banish him of our own convictions. We need to also need to remember that these writings were written almost two millenia ago, and in a vastly different language and vernacular than we use today. Taking the bible literally goes down dark paths I never want to venture down.

If Satan were able to "control" our thoughts, then God lied to us when he said we had free will, something I do not believe to be possible. Free will means that, yes, the power to be good, or be evil, lies with us, not with God or the Devil. God granted us a wonderful gift in free will, but nothing is free if it is shackled, by either good or by evil. Just as Satan cannot "make" us do anything, nor can God "make" us do anything, this was proven when King David went against God's orders to impregnate a woman, instead pulling out (This is most frequently used to prove masturbation is wrong, but is in fact really a lot more about God getting pissed because David broke his word with God).

Now, can we serve God, or serve Satan through our actions? Certainly, but only by our own will, by our own choice.

[Yurt]

DragonStryk72;233626]As you yourself just said, if we let him in, if we give him control. He does not, therefore, "control" our actions, as we can as well banish him of our own convictions.

but he can still control us...yes or no?

We need to also need to remember that these writings were written almost two millenia ago, and in a vastly different language and vernacular than we use today. Taking the bible literally goes down dark paths I never want to venture down.

your point? are you saying i did? when and where?

If Satan were able to "control" our thoughts, then God lied to us when he said we had free will, something I do not believe to be possible. Free will means that, yes, the power to be good, or be evil, lies with us, not with God or the Devil. God granted us a wonderful gift in free will, but nothing is free if it is shackled, by either good or by evil. Just as Satan cannot "make" us do anything, nor can God "make" us do anything, this was proven when King David went against God's orders to impregnate a woman, instead pulling out (This is most frequently used to prove masturbation is wrong, but is in fact really a lot more about God getting pissed because David broke his word with God).

Now, can we serve God, or serve Satan through our actions? Certainly, but only by our own will, by our own choice.

so we can give him complete control.... i already said that

hypo: if i put a gun in my five year old kids hand and tell him, point that toy at that person and pull that little trigger...the child pulls the little "toy" trigger....

what would you call that

[DragonStryk72]

but he can still control us...yes or no?

Since he can only have as much "control" as we allow, and since we can simply boot him at any time by our own choice, no, he doesn't, he only possesses the lie of control. We are the ones in control, we only like to think "Satan did it" because it is easier than the moral hit we would have to take otherwise.

your point? are you saying i did? when and where?

You seemed to be going in that direction with paul's message. I believe that he meant it more in a metaphorical sense, "fight the 'demons' within"


so we can give him complete control.... i already said that

hypo: if i put a gun in my five year old kids hand and tell him, point that toy at that person and pull that little trigger...the child pulls the little "toy" trigger....

what would you call that

A horrible choice made by a person, not Satan necessarily. The child could also drop the gun, or a number of other options.

[Yurt]

A horrible choice made by a person, not Satan necessarily. The child could also drop the gun, or a number of other options.

can't quote the rest, lost in the way your quoted me. do you fully understand the power of "free will?" can you completely control yourself? no matter what? satan has no control over you, none. you are blameless, without sin, perfect.

so the five year old made the choice? the five year thought like you is what you are really saying....you aren't five. to satan you are though.

[Missileman]

my understanding from the bible is that satan can indeed control our thoughts and actions...paul described a daily battle....if we let him. it would be remiss of anyone to claim that anything about sin is "simple", it is so complex that God had to sacrifice his own Son...for sin...that lucifer first started and is the "prince" of, so saying that satan equals sin is, IMO, quite accurate.

If the Bible is true...if there is a heaven where a soul spends eternity, God didn't sacrifice anything.

[DragonStryk72]

can't quote the rest, lost in the way your quoted me. do you fully understand the power of "free will?" can you completely control yourself? no matter what? satan has no control over you, none. you are blameless, without sin, perfect.

so the five year old made the choice? the five year thought like you is what you are really saying....you aren't five. to satan you are though.

Um, no, it means it is free, free to choose, even to choose not to. Wherein did I say blameless, or even hint at it? It means that we are responsible for our choices, both good and bad. We have more capacity than a five year, lest everyone would have fallen to satan at this point.

Yes, if we hand Satan the keys, refuse to do anything to stop him, and otherwise choose of our own free will to keep letting him "control" our actions, then that is the choice we made with our free will. Otherwise, he can't win, plain and simple. when is the last time that you felt like a marionette, strings physically pulling yank you, regardless of what you want?

We can choose not to do that, see? free will again. Much like freedom in our own country, we have the freedom to fuck up, and do things wrong, we have the freedom to break the rules, but should we, then we will have consequences to deal with. Blaming it all on Satan is just a rationalization, instead of taking the hard look at ourselves, and seeing that it is us, and only us, who have control over what we do.

The person who gave the kid the gun was also just that, a person. Why always bad analogies? Using flawed logic doesn't prove anything, it simply tries to turn something more complex into something simple in a way that destroys all context.

[DragonStryk72]

my understanding from the bible is that satan can indeed control our thoughts and actions...paul described a daily battle....if we let him. it would be remiss of anyone to claim that anything about sin is "simple", it is so complex that God had to sacrifice his own Son...for sin...that lucifer first started and is the "prince" of, so saying that satan equals sin is, IMO, quite accurate.

So then Bush is America, and Queen Elisabeth is England? Sin is a separate entity, just like, when Giuliani was mayor in NYC, that did not make him NYC, just the mayor of it.

Actually, Jesus also took some time to strike down Leviticus, which is what the Pharisees were using to go against him, but anyhow.

[Roadrunner]

As you yourself just said, if we let him in, if we give him control.

"if we let him in" - That's the whole substance of free will. We can choose to obey Satan's promptings, or we can choose to obey the Word of God. Neither controls us; the choice is ours. The Jews and Romans chose to obey the promptings of Satan at the time of Christ's death. That's why Christ said Satan would be the culprit in bringing about his death.

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,


1. The facts are thusly.
2. *The Devil* has powers you could never withstand.
3. If he were to focus it on you.
4. *The Powers of Satan* are what drove the *Death of Christ*.
5. Small victory, but in winning this one small battle, *Satan* lost the war.
6. Sometimes winning is losing, and in the case of *Christ* dieing on *The Cross*, this fulfilled *All Righteousness*, which in a way is unfathomable to the average human.
7. How can losing be winning for *God*?
8. This is another, *Mystery* most humans can't wrap their brains around.
9. If you understand the, *Bible* and its boiled down lesson, you can easily understand this.
10. The over all message goes thusly.
11. An uppity part of *Gods* creation, wanted to be like *God*, he stole away part of it, and caused a split, which could not be corrected, unless a sacrifice took place, for reconciliation of *Creation* and *God*.
12. The breach occurred by the promptings of a fallen angel, who thought he knew better than *God*, and wanted power to over rule, *God*, in all things.
13. Mankind is in a way *A Unahppy Victim* of creation, who really didn't have a say in all this, and *God* *Being A Just God*, and a *Fair God*, sent his *Only Begotten Son*, which in fact was himself, to prepare himself, a sacrifice, of himself, to allow safe passage, from eternal damnation, providing for humankind, an escape clause, in a world, that has snares and trap doors, untold.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas