Christian faith: Calvinism is back

[darin]

Actually it is you who is making my point. If I were to send you to the store to purchase a loaf of bread you would be sent with a purpose. You would not return with a box of fish sticks nor would you return with a steak, you would return with a loaf of bread if you wished to follow my instruction. You could bring white bread, wheat bread, rye bread, etc...as long as you returned with a loaf of bread.

Why would the instruction of God be exempted from common sense? When God's word says "do no murder," you are bound by a set rule that would preclude you from tossing someone off the top floor of a skyskraper as well as running them down in the road with your car. When God's word says that liars will be in hell fire, you should understand that a lie is a lie, no matter what man might say about little lies vs big lies.

I do believe that in the end you are making things much more complicated than they really are in trying to claim that the Bible doesn't represent God's will for man.

...So...is the bible full of knowledge or guidance for everything we do? No. It's not. The Bible is a snapshot (or series of snapshots) which gives us insights into Him. If you think the Bible contains enough information for you to know everything about God, you're in for a huge surprise.

[PostmodernProphet]

And who transcribed that description?

the people he chose to do so.....

[BoogyMan]

...So...is the bible full of knowledge or guidance for everything we do? No. It's not. The Bible is a snapshot (or series of snapshots) which gives us insights into Him. If you think the Bible contains enough information for you to know everything about God, you're in for a huge surprise.

Yes.....it is.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The Bible contains everything I need to know about His will in order to be saved and how to be pleasing to Him.

[darin]

Yes.....it is.

As I've illustrated, it's simply not the case. And it doesn't HAVE to be.

The Bible contains everything I need to know about His will in order to be saved and how to be pleasing to Him.

You're limiting GOD there, bro. There are perhaps thousands? Millions? Of people who learned to please Him without the aide of a Bible whatsoever.

And your verse is wrong - once more:

16 For all scripture inspired of God is profitable to teach, to reprove, to chastise, [for] to learn in rightwiseness,

Thus - For all scripture inspired of God...not "ALL Scripture IS inspired by God".

There's a sublte yet important difference. Things like 'geneology' in scripture isn't neccessarily God-breathed. When people wrote of God's specific instruction to specific people for a specific reason, we can't assume that's God's instruction to us without contextual understanding. There's SO MUCH MORE than "Well..if it's in the Bible..." because God doesn't LIVE in the Bible.

[Abbey Marie]

By the every definition I've read , God is unavailable to human perception, and thus cannot be "seen".

And neither are we, after death. How we "see" in the spiritual world is unknown to us at this time. Very similar to the point I was making, and doesn't change anything.

[bullypulpit]

the people he chose to do so.....

People...Now we get to the heart of the matter. Is the Bible the word of God? Or is it simply a compilation of the writings of men? And that is the problem with revealed religion.

Regardless of any claims to divine inspiration, the Bible was written by men. It is the product or human perception and conception, and is thus subject to the same limitations as human perception and conception. The prejudices, the misperception, the preconception, the memories, the ignorance, the superstitions...All limit human perception and the concepts that arise from it. And unless one is aware of those limitations, one can be led to distorted, misleading or simply wrong conclusions. And so it is with revealed religions.

To whom is this "revelation" granted? Being an entirely subjective experience, it is not open to objective examination and independent validation. We have only the word of the individual that it was revealed to them by some divine authority...An authority which, itself, is not subject to objective and independent verification.

Ah, well none of this will convince you. You will not listen to the reality which contradicts your faith.

[PostmodernProphet]

none of this will convince you.

truly spoken.....

[bullypulpit]

And neither are we, after death. How we "see" in the spiritual world is unknown to us at this time. Very similar to the point I was making, and doesn't change anything.

You speak of something unknown to us as if it were an established fact...utterly devoid of any evidence of the existence of a "spiritual" world we can somehow "see".

[darin]

You speak of something unknown to us as if it were an established fact...utterly devoid of any evidence of the existence of a "spiritual" world we can somehow "see".

..sorta like the whole "Homos are born that way"... but I digress..

[BoogyMan]

As I've illustrated, it's simply not the case. And it doesn't HAVE to be.

The only thing you have illustrated is that you place no value on the Bible.

You're limiting GOD there, bro. There are perhaps thousands? Millions? Of people who learned to please Him without the aide of a Bible whatsoever.

When the Bible clearly points out that the only way to be pleasing to God is through Christ, that Christ has all authority over the church, and that man should study in order to show himself approved unto God, you really don't have much to stand on with regard to man being able to be pleasing to God without His word given to man through the Apostles. I am not limiting God because he gave us exactly what we needed to know to be pleasing to Him, did He tell us everything about Himself? No. He did however present to man a plan of salvation whereby we, if we are faithful and obedient, may spend an eternity in His service.

And your verse is wrong - once more:

Thus - For all scripture inspired of God...not "ALL Scripture IS inspired by God".

There's a sublte yet important difference. Things like 'geneology' in scripture isn't neccessarily God-breathed. When people wrote of God's specific instruction to specific people for a specific reason, we can't assume that's God's instruction to us without contextual understanding. There's SO MUCH MORE than "Well..if it's in the Bible..." because God doesn't LIVE in the Bible.

You are digging a hole in which to bury your argument, my friend. You are actually going to try an denigrate the text over a "that depends on what the meaning of is is" kind of argument? That is a distressing turn I never expected you to take. The content of the text is not changed with the word is.

[Abbey Marie]

You speak of something unknown to us as if it were an established fact...utterly devoid of any evidence of the existence of a "spiritual" world we can somehow "see".

Well, not totally unknown, as Jesus spoke of it. But on the whole, yes, that's why it is called faith.

[bullypulpit]

truly spoken.....

Umm...as to addressing the rest, cant?...Or won't?

[PostmodernProphet]

Umm...as to addressing the rest, cant?...Or won't?

oh, sorry....I simply ignored it as foolishness....you believe it to be true, I don't....it isn't that complicated....

[darin]

The only thing you have illustrated is that you place no value on the Bible.

I place APPROPRIATE value on the Bible. I don't worship the Bible. I know God is MUCH bigger and more complex than the snippets of information contained in the Bible.

When the Bible clearly points out that the only way to be pleasing to God is through Christ, that Christ has all authority over the church, and that man should study in order to show himself approved unto God, you really don't have much to stand on with regard to man being able to be pleasing to God without His word given to man through the Apostles. I am not limiting God because he gave us exactly what we needed to know to be pleasing to Him, did He tell us everything about Himself? No. He did however present to man a plan of salvation whereby we, if we are faithful and obedient, may spend an eternity in His service.

Well - you're a contradiction. Man can't be 'saved' thru works, yet you believe to please God we have to study scripture. What did Christ say was the most important aspect of God? Loving HIM and others as yourself.

The scripture Paul? wrote of in the scripture you mention was the Old Testament. Remember, The New Testament wasn't published when Paul was writing much of it - AND there's not a shred of evidence Paul KNEW he was writing 'the Bible'.

Further, your insinuation is those who never have a Bible won't find themselves in a situation where God is pleased with them. That doesn't pass - that shouldn't pass - anyone's common-sense test.

You are digging a hole in which to bury your argument, my friend. You are actually going to try an denigrate the text over a "that depends on what the meaning of is is" kind of argument? That is a distressing turn I never expected you to take. The content of the text is not changed with the word is.

JUST READ WHAT IS THERE. Very simple, really...the position of the words CHANGES the meaning. Literal translations aren't clear. And remember, the scripture 'breathed' by God didn't likely include the writer's works...because we have no evidence the writer knew or thought he was writing anything more than a letter to a brother in Christ.

You're simply dismissing my arguments now. Do you think it's ungodly to question what a lot of us might have been taught?

[BoogyMan]

I place APPROPRIATE value on the Bible. I don't worship the Bible. I know God is MUCH bigger and more complex than the snippets of information contained in the Bible.

God is certainly much bigger than what is revealed, but that doesn't limit His ability to convey to us His will in the Bible so that we can be saved. You don't seem to get the idea that you will not know what has not been revealed.

Well - you're a contradiction. Man can't be 'saved' thru works, yet you believe to please God we have to study scripture. What did Christ say was the most important aspect of God? Loving HIM and others as yourself.

This is so wrong that I don't know a better way to rebut it than to simply quote the text.

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

We are certainly to love each other, but I would ask that you define what kind of love you are speaking of and lets see if it is the kind discussed in the text of the New Testament.

The scripture Paul? wrote of in the scripture you mention was the Old Testament. Remember, The New Testament wasn't published when Paul was writing much of it - AND there's not a shred of evidence Paul KNEW he was writing 'the Bible'.

Paul was inspired of God, do you question that?

Further, your insinuation is those who never have a Bible won't find themselves in a situation where God is pleased with them. That doesn't pass - that shouldn't pass - anyone's common-sense test.

Read Hebrews chapter 11 and then lets discuss the error in this comment, dmp.

JUST READ WHAT IS THERE. Very simple, really...the position of the words CHANGES the meaning. Literal translations aren't clear. And remember, the scripture 'breathed' by God didn't likely include the writer's works...because we have no evidence the writer knew or thought he was writing anything more than a letter to a brother in Christ.

The men writing the letters that you show such disdain for were inspired by God through the Holy Spirit, are you denying that fact? Are you denying that God has a plan for man?

You're simply dismissing my arguments now. Do you think it's ungodly to question what a lot of us might have been taught?

If your argument cannot be supported with scripture it is unworthy of serious consideration, my friend.