i really hope that it can be as simple as you sayOriginally Posted by Noir
Senior Member
i really hope that it can be as simple as you say
People show you and tell you who they are and you need to be listening and watching, not deciding that you know better.
Copacetic
I find it sadistically ironic and hypocritical, from a conservative perspective, that we justify using force to procure our views and mechanisms of control upon another group. Isn't that what conservatives oppose domestically?
He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.AeschylusRead more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...zeMUwcpY1Io.99
Check Your Six
I don't remember the Taliban ever agreeing to hand over Bin Laden. Got links to support that?
Saddam Hussein did in fact have WMDs, he had used them in the past against his own populace.Iraq:
- No evidence was presented that shows iraq had WMD, and of course no WMD were found at all in iraq.
- Iraq has never been a threat to the national security of US.
Saddam also supported terrorists financially. As I recall, he would send the families of dead terrorists between $11,000 and $25,000.
That, my friend, is state - sponsored terrorism, and it was freely acknowledged in the international media.
Beyond that, Saddam attempted to have a former U.S. President killed. That also is unacceptable.
With the implementation of a new democratic government in Iraq, it is hoped that Iraq will be a shining example of democracy which will promote moderation and hopefully one day, pacifism.
Very well, let's explore what happened. Then you can tell me who started that:Attacked israel ???, when did that actually happen, have they started the war !!!
The Six-Day War was fought between June 5 and June 10, 1967, by Israel and the neighboring states of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. The outcome was a swift and decisive Israeli victory.The UN Secretary-General U Thant attempted to negotiate with the Egyptian government, but on May 18 the Egyptian Foreign Minister informed nations with troops in UNEF that the UNEF mission in Egypt and the Gaza Strip had been terminated and that they must leave immediately. Egyptian forces then prevented UNEF troops from entering their posts. The Governments of India and Yugoslavia decided to withdraw their troops from UNEF, regardless of the decision of U Thant. While this was taking place, U Thant suggested that UNEF be redeployed to the Israeli side of the border, but Israel refused, arguing that UNEF contingents from countries hostile to Israel would be more likely to impede an Israeli response to Egyptian aggression than to stop that aggression in the first place.[70] The Permanent Representative of Egypt then informed U Thant that the Egyptian government had decided to terminate UNEF's presence in the Sinai and the Gaza Strip, and requested steps that would withdraw the force as soon as possible. The UNEF commander was given the order to begin withdrawal on May 19.[71][72] Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser then began the re-militarization of the Sinai, and concentrated tanks and troops there.[73]On May 22, Egypt responded by announcing, in addition to the UN withdrawal,[78] that the Straits of Tiran would be closed to "all ships flying Israeli flags or carrying strategic materials", with effect from May 23.[80]At the time, members of the international community pledged that Israel would never again be denied use of the Straits of Tiran. The French representative to the UN, for example, announced that an attempt to interfere with free shipping in the Straits would be against international law, and American President Dwight Eisenhower went so far as publicly to recognize that reimposing a blockade in the Straits of Tiran would be seen as an aggressive act which would oblige Israel to protect its maritime rights in accordance with Article 51 of the UN Charter.[91] United Nations Secretary-General U Thant also went to Cairo to help negotiate an agreement to avoid conflict, but after the closing of the Straits of Tiran, Israeli Foreign Minister, Abba Eban, contended that this was enough to start the war. Eban said, "From May the 24th onward, the question who started the war or who fired the first shot became momentously irrelevant. There is no difference in civil law between murdering a man by slow strangulation or killing him by a shot in the head... From the moment at which the blockade was posed, active hostilities had commenced, and Israel owed Egypt nothing of her Charter rights." [92]During May and June the Israeli government had worked hard to keep Jordan out of any war; it was concerned about being attacked on multiple fronts, and did not want to have to deal with the Jordanian West Bank. However, Jordan's King Hussein got caught up in the wave of pan-Arab nationalism preceding the war;[g] and so, on May 30, Jordan signed a mutual defense treaty with Egypt, thereby joining the military alliance already in place between Egypt and Syria. The move surprised both Egyptians and foreign observers, because President Nasser had generally been at odds with Hussein, calling him an "imperialist lackey" just days earlier.[97] Nasser said that any differences between him and Hussein were erased "in one moment" and declared: "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."[97]At the end of May 1967, Jordanian forces were given to the command of an Egyptian general, Abdul Munim Riad.[98] On the same day, Nasser proclaimed: "The armies of Egypt, Jordan and Syria are poised on the borders of Israel ... to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not of more declarations."[99] Israel called upon Jordan numerous times to refrain from hostilities.In May 1967, Hafez al-Assad, then Syria's Defense Minister declared: "Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian Army, with its finger on the trigger, is united... I, as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation."[68]On June 3, days before the war, Egypt flew to Amman two battalions of commandos tasked with infiltrating Israel's borders and engaging in attacks and bombings so as to draw IDF into a Jordanian front and ease the pressure on the Egyptians. Soviet-made artillery and Egyptian military supplies and crews were also flown to Jordan.[101]At the same time several other Arab states not bordering Israel, including Iraq, Sudan, Kuwait and Algeria, began mobilizing their armed forces.
The Egyptian attack plan was code-named Operation Dawn, and was planned by General Abdel Hakim Amer. It called for the strategic bombing of Israeli airfields, ports, cities, and the Negev Nuclear Research Center. Arab armies would then invade Israel, and cut it in half with an armored thrust through the Negev.In his speech to Arab trade unionists on May 26, Nasser announced: "If Israel embarks on an aggression against Syria or Egypt, the battle against Israel will be a general one and not confined to one spot on the Syrian or Egyptian borders. The battle will be a general one and our basic objective will be to destroy Israel."[102][103]President Abdul Rahman Arif of Iraq said that "the existence of Israel is an error which must be recitified. This is an opportunity to wipe out the ignonimy which has been with us since 1948.[105] The Iraqi Prime Minister predicted that "there will be practically no Jewish survivors".Caught up in Arab enthusiasm for military action and encouraged by the lack of response to the closure of the Straits, Egyptian Field Marshal Amer planned for initiating an attack on Israel in late May. He told one of his generals that "This time we will be the ones to start the war." This was counter to Nasser's strategy of pushing Israel to start the war. Historian Michael Oren states that Egyptian sources are divided over why Nasser did not veto Amer's plan. Oren suggests that "Nasser was apprised of [the plan] but lacked the political strength to override Amer's order. Also, the preparation of an Egyptian invasion of Israel had certain advantages for Nasser." [112]There is a lot more. Clearly you Arabs started that war. We can continue talking about the Six Day War if you'd like, but I really don't see the point.On the eve of the war, Egypt massed approximately 100,000 of its 160,000 troops in the Sinai, including all of its seven divisions (four infantry, two armored and one mechanized), as well as four independent infantry and four independent armored brigades. No less than a third of them were veterans of Egypt's intervention into the Yemen Civil War and another third were reservists. These forces had 950 tanks, 1,100 APCs and more than 1,000 artillery pieces.[124] At the same time some Egyptian troops (15,000 - 20,000) were still fighting in Yemen.[125][126][127] Nasser's ambivalence about his goals and objectives was reflected in his orders to the military. The general staff changed the operational plan four times in May 1967, each change requiring the redeployment of troops, with the inevitable toll on both men and vehicles. Towards the end of May, Nasser finally forbade the general staff from proceeding with the Qahir ("Victory") plan, which called for a light infantry screen in the forward fortifications with the bulk of the forces held back to conduct a massive counterattack against the main Israeli advance when identified, and ordered a forward defense of the Sinai.[128] In the meantime, he continued to take actions intended to increase the level of mobilization of Egypt, Syria and Jordan, in order to bring pressure on Israel.
Syria's army had a total strength of 75,000 and amassed them along the Syrian border.[129] Jordan's army had 55,000 troops,[130] including 300 tanks along the Jordanian border, 250 of which were US M48 Patton, sizable amounts of M113 APCs, a new battalion of mechanized infantry, and a paratrooper battalion trained in the new US-built school. They also had 12 battalions of artillery and six batteries of 81 mm and 120 mm mortars.[101]
Documents captured by the Israelis from various Jordanian command posts record orders from the end of May for the Hashemite Brigade to capture Ramot Burj Bir Mai'in in a night raid, codenamed "Operation Khaled". The aim was to establish a bridgehead together with positions in Latrun for an armored capture of Lod and Ramle. The "go" codeword was Sa'ek and end was Nasser. The Jordanians also planned for the capture of Motza and Sha'alvim in the strategic Jerusalem Corridor. Motza was tasked to Infantry Brigade 27 camped near Ma'ale Adummim: "The reserve brigade will commence a nighttime infiltration onto Motza, will destroy it to the foundation, and won't leave a remnant or refugee from among its 800 residents".[101]
100 Iraqi tanks and an infantry division were readied near the Jordanian border. Two squadrons of fighter-aircraft, Hawker Hunters and MiG 21 respectively, were rebased adjacent to the Jordanian border.[101]
On June 2, Jordan called up all reserve officers, and the West Bank commander met with community leaders in Ramallah to request assistance and cooperation for his troops during the war, assuring them that "in 3 days we'll be in Tel-Aviv".[101]
The Arab air forces themselves were aided by volunteer pilots from the Pakistan Air Force acting in independent capacity, as well as some aircraft from Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia to make up for the massive losses suffered on the first day of the war.[131]
Israel didn't have a choice.
Most wars that have been fought throughout history have had the end result of the losing party giving territory to the victor.israel wanted to keep the land !!!, even if the arabs attacked first, israel doesnt have the right to keep the land, what world are you living in, are we in a jungle where the strong can enforce his wishes on the weak !!!, there are laws which were made to be respected, and your country participated in making them, so at least it should be the first to respect them and enforce them.
In WWII, Germany started the war, and it lost, did anyone get a piece of its land ?, is it legal to take a land from the attacker ?
The idea that the victorious nation(s) do not gain more territory after conflict seems to be a relatively recent notion. I imagine that it's more trouble than it's worth.
We didn't want Italy, Japan or Germany after WWII. However, the new governments we installed at the time have certainly been peaceful since we beat them, and that was certainly a true success story.
And, actually, the Soviet Union ended up with owning East Germany for over 40 years as a puppet state.
Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum
Enemy of the State
In June of 67 I was in Chu Li Vietnam. We were put on standby alert on June 5th. No patrols, no operations, everything was at a stand still. C-130's were standing by on the air strip and for three days we just sat there and waited. We were the reaction force to be sent into Israel should things go bad for them. The combat battalions could be there in 18 hours. The entire brigade would be there in 3 days. If things had begun to go bad for the Israelis the arabs would have been introduced to the patch in my avatar.
When I die I'm sure to go to heaven, cause I spent my time in hell.
You get more with a kind word and a two by four, than you do with just a kind word.
Senior Member
since i really have no time to reply to all the info you are providing me, i will have to get back to the main subject which i and you were discussing, as you already said before, lets keep israel conflicts out of the discussion, because we can really debate about that issue for days without anyone convinced and we will just keep throwing info and sources at each other.
you asked me about what can we do to stop the terrorism, i answered, and the thing is that the lands that israel is occupying is part of the problem
call it spoils of war or anything you would like, but if those lands doesnt get back to its owners, i dont see any end to the terrorism, thats my opinion.
People show you and tell you who they are and you need to be listening and watching, not deciding that you know better.
Check Your Six
Unfortunately Israel, the palestinians and the 1967 borders seem to be a central part of your argument as to the root of the problem, so let's just hash this out.
Once you review the information, you'll see that everything I've told you is the truth and is freely available on the internet.
Let me know when you're ready to discuss the Six Day War and we can move past this.
It is a very complex bit of history with international intrigue and many players, I've always found it quite fascinating.
Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum
Looking for a hero
abso, are you advocating that Israel just give back lands acquired after the Six Days War ... or abandon all of Israel? I don't think you are old enough to remember that the Arabs have always been attacking Israel .... Palestinian terrorists have been attacking them since the 1950's ... long before the Six Days War.
Why do you think Israel and the USA are responsible and not Palestine, or Egypt, or Jordan, or Syria?
If the freedom of speech is taken away
then dumb and silent we may be led,
like sheep to the slaughter.
George Washington (1732-1799) First President of the USA.
Senior Member
i am not talking about the history, i am talking about the current events, i was asked what will be the solution for the terrorism, and i answered.
and i am not saying that israel should abandon all their lands, just return the land that is not theirs, and live in their own land, the land that is recognized officially by your country and my country and every country in the world, which is the 1967 borders.
the youth living today, has nothing to do with the past, the terrorists just attacks israel because its occupying their lands, killing their families.
what do you expect from the people to do when israel kills 1400 innocent civilian in less than a month.
how many recruits do you think the terrorists gained by that.
how many youth joined Hamas because israel killed their parents in that war, how many civilian should israel kill so that you can actually acknowledge that its the palestinians that are getting killed not the israelians.
can you tell me in the past 20 years, how many israelian civilian have died, and how many palestinians died ?
People show you and tell you who they are and you need to be listening and watching, not deciding that you know better.
Looking for a hero
Do you really think Israel just wakes up one day and says, "hey, let's go kill some Arabs" and launches an attack? Without provocation?
As for the innocents ... are you telling me that Hamas does not hide behind civilians?
If the freedom of speech is taken away
then dumb and silent we may be led,
like sheep to the slaughter.
George Washington (1732-1799) First President of the USA.
Senior Member
Hamas fighters are palestinians who have families there, they are not the occupation force, how can you think that they will hid behind their own families.
so you think that israel wont attacked unprovoked, like they are saints
but Hamas fighters will hide behind their mothers and fathers and brothers !!!,
can you put more reason in your opinions please ?
People show you and tell you who they are and you need to be listening and watching, not deciding that you know better.
Looking for a hero
If Hamas really wanted to fight then they should have organized themselves and taken the fight away from the civilians and their homes. You don't attack another country and then go home and have dinner with your families. You stay and fight until the battle is over. And, yes, I do believe terrorists who are not part of an army use civilians as cover hoping they won't be attacked.Hamas fighters are palestinians who have families there, they are not the occupation force, how can you think that they will hid behind their own families.
so you think that israel wont attacked unprovoked, like they are saints
but Hamas fighters will hide behind their mothers and fathers and brothers !!!,
can you put more reason in your opinions please ?
If the freedom of speech is taken away
then dumb and silent we may be led,
like sheep to the slaughter.
George Washington (1732-1799) First President of the USA.
Looking for a hero
Here's more about Hamas:
Today's adversaries are often terrorists. Terrorist organizations are not signatories to international conventions and treaties. Terrorists do not abide by the principles that nations have established among themselves for the conduct of armed conflict. In fact, the opposite is true. Terrorist groups are well schooled in these principles and expertly exploit them to advantage over their opponents.
Terrorists' violations of the principles of armed conflict are blatant and deliberate. They are often designed to manipulate those fighting the terrorists or responding to a terrorist attack to place themselves in a position to violate the principles or respond ineff ectively. When this terrorist strategy works, the opposing force must choose between canceling an operation, conducting an ineff ective operation, or risking war crimes charges. This strategy was successfully employed by Hamas, the terrorist organization controlling the Gaza Strip, against the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) during Operation Cast Lead in 2009.
.................
Hamas launched rockets from areas near schools, used hospitals as bases of operation, stored weapons in mosques, and booby trapped entire neighborhoods. Thus, Hamas was able to keep the IDF from attacking legitimate military targets by taking advantage of the IDF's aversion to causing Palestinian casualties. When the IDF did attack, civilian casualties and the damage caused to homes, public institutions, and the Gaza Strip's infrastructure made excellent propaganda. The media reported almost all casualties as civilian, including combatants engaged in firing missiles. Casualty counts became a propaganda tool artfully wielded by Hamas supporters
..............
http://www.homeland1.com/homeland-se...tics-of-hamas/
Last edited by SassyLady; 12-14-2010 at 04:26 AM.
If the freedom of speech is taken away
then dumb and silent we may be led,
like sheep to the slaughter.
George Washington (1732-1799) First President of the USA.
Senior Member
believe me, i have discussed it alot, and read books about it, there is no need for more discussion about it.
what you started this thread for, is for us to find out what are the solutions and the actions that should be done to make the muslim terrorists stop their hatred towards, the west, am i right ?
so i just said that for them to feel justice and stop attacking, then we must give them their land back
you can say that those land shouldnt be given back as much as you want, but the facts will always be:
- Israel stole the land (reason doesnt matter now)
- Palestinians wants their land back
- Palestinians will always fight for their land
- Israel doesnt want to return the land
- Israel continue its occupation illegally
- Israel kills palestinians who attack it.
- Terrorists hate israel for what happening
- Terrorists attacks israel because its occupation
- US supports israel in everything it does.
- Terrorists hate USA for supporting israel
- Terrorists attacks USA
- Americans lose their life
- Americans hate muslims
- USA attack arab countries
- More muslims dies
- Terrorists hates US even more
- Terrorists will attack US even more
and then REPEAT....
so the cycle will only be broken when:
- Israel returns the land.
- Palestinians have no more reason to fight.
- Israel wont be attacked.
- Israel wont have to kill anyone.
- Terrorists will have no reason to attack israel.
- US wont be hated for supporting israel
- Terrorists wont hate US
- Terrorists wont attack US
PS: NO religion is involved, war has always been about land and money, even the crusade werent about religion, maybe the religious leaders at that time liked to believe so, but the kings didnt care about religion, they just wanted more fame and land, thats the way war have always been, and its the way it will always be.
People show you and tell you who they are and you need to be listening and watching, not deciding that you know better.
Senior Member
maybe they cant form an army due to the fact that they dont have any weapons to form the army with, they will just be annihilated with one air strike if they grouped in one place.
and by the way i have always thought the same, Hamas should form an army and do large scale operations against israelian military insted of israelian civilians.
instead of one suicide bomber detonating himself in a check point for the israelian army, 100 men could attack and take the whole check point as prisoners, i never liked the suicide bombings, they are stupid, pointless, inhuman, against my principles and religion.
People show you and tell you who they are and you need to be listening and watching, not deciding that you know better.
Looking for a hero
Yep, pretty stupid and pointless and at the expense of thousands of lives.
If the freedom of speech is taken away
then dumb and silent we may be led,
like sheep to the slaughter.
George Washington (1732-1799) First President of the USA.
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