Mega-church hypocrisy?

[Robert A Whit]

Experience can sure help in a selection. God is serious to me. The LDS Bishop (in charge of a ward) receives no pay. The LDS church has a range of things to do.

Sunday is the day of the services. We have one evening for family get togethers in the middle of the week.

Trying to make sure no member falls between the cracks, you can expect, once a member, that your well being will be checked on and if you are in need, be looked after.

The unmarried woman, even with no children, may be in such need that the church gives her food, pays her rent or home payments and so forth. Services are not rambuctionous. There is none of that standing and clapping hands or shouting during service.

No man should seek leadership in the church to obtain some fancy car or home. Church is not for that purpose.

I have attended a fair number of churches. I found some real Bible experts at the various churches. Some annoyed me since they appear to me to be a way for some pastor to make a lot of money. Songs are fine, Mormons also sing. But we revere God. We revere Jesus. I have never heard of Jesus being loud, receiving lots of money for his time nor raising hell during services.

We don't do any of that.

[KitchenKitten99]

The LDS church is large enough to serve the local area. You will never be asked to put cash into any collection plate.
The churches are designed to fit the neighborhood and are not ostentatious.
You will not find a paid minister. The Bishop is paid nothing. If you want to make a lot of money by preaching, shun the Mormon Church.

Do you feel pressure once inside during services.

NO.

Is Sunday School handled during services?

NO

When one attends church, that time is for God and Jesus. It is their time. After services, then you can study doctrine, the Bible, the Book of Mormon, etc.

The church may be just what you seek.

Bear in mind, church is not entertainment. You won't find bands playing as you do in many Xtian churches. We call the church a Ward and if need be, more than one ward meets in the same building, staggered as to time of service.

Unlike some churches, you are not grilled to answer questions during church. Loud services are not part of the system. Check it out.

Thank you for your input. However I am thinking that the Wesleyan church is probably what will best fit me. There are a couple around here.

On another note, I came across this article while looking at blogs mentioning various things about Mac Hammond and I wanted to know if it was just rumors, or if there was any truth. Interesting to say the least...

This was 2 years ago and obviously they are not in foreclosure anymore. Not sure who is the actual owner now, and the property tax records aren't popping up because of the recent land acquisition for their new wing and sign, thus it is being re-platted, etc.

http://minnesotaindependent.com/6397...ng-foreclosure

(emphases not mine; they were links that didn't copy over. See full article for the links)

Property owned by Living Word Christian Center has gone into foreclosure, according to the Hennepin County Sheriff’s office. On July 28, four parcels of land owned by the Brooklyn Park mega-church was bought at a sheriff’s sale for $5.1 million. Pastor Mac Hammond, who preaches a “prosperity gospel,” has been plagued by financial problems over the last few years. The church took millions from a man who was later convicted of fraud, and the IRS opened an investigation into the church’s finances stemming from favorable financial dealings between the church and Hammond. ...
[snip]

In early 2008, the church began to fall behind on its budget by $40,000 to $70,000, prompting Hammond to sell off his jet and forcing the church to cut its hour-long television broadcast to a half hour.
In May, the church was served with papers demanding the return of $2.2 million in money it received from Gerard Cellette, who had been convicted of fraud. Cellette ran a Ponzi scheme and lawyers for the victims were attempting to collect the money from Living Word for remuneration.
The church said in a statement in May that it felt it shouldn’t have to give the money back to the victims because of its status as a church. “This lawsuit, on behalf of Mr. Cellette’s investors, to take back the funds from LWCC and repay the investors is unfair. Our church is essentially being asked to be the guarantor to principally out-of-state, sophisticated investors that made bad investments with Mr. Cellette.”
It’s not the first time the church has invoked religious privilege following questions about its finances.
In 2007, the Minnesota Independent reported that Living Word had arranged favorable loans for Hammond and that Hammond had bought a stunt plane from the church and then leased it back to the church. That reporting led to an IRS investigation, and in 2008 the church sued to block the IRS from investigating.
The IRS wanted a look at Hammond’s and Living Word’s financial books, but Hammond invoked religious privilege. ...

[Abbey Marie]

Hey KK,

I don't think the size of the church necessarily means it has spiritual problems. Wanting a larger building to be able to reach a larger congregation is fine. But I think your instincts are good on this particular church. IMO, a pastor who is right with God, filled with the holy spirit, would not be living such a lavish lifestyle. It seems like a big red flag to me.

You will know the right church when sit through a service. The only thing that truly matters is the spiritual heart of your pastor, and based on your post, I'll bet you will have a feel for that when you hear him speak. Everything else is extraneous.

I wish you the very best in your search! It's so important for your children.

-Abbey

[mundame]

In May, the church was served with papers demanding the return of $2.2 million in money it received from Gerard Cellette, who had been convicted of fraud. Cellette ran a Ponzi scheme and lawyers for the victims were attempting to collect the money from Living Word for remuneration.
The church said in a statement in May that it felt it shouldn’t have to give the money back to the victims because of its status as a church. “This lawsuit, on behalf of Mr. Cellette’s investors, to take back the funds from LWCC and repay the investors is unfair. Our church is essentially being asked to be the guarantor to principally out-of-state, sophisticated investors that made bad investments with Mr. Cellette.”
It’s not the first time the church has invoked religious privilege following questions about its finances.

Oh, good, the church got involved in money laundering for a Ponzi scheme. It only lacked that. This church is crooked as a dogleg.

[fj1200]

Oh, good, the church got involved in money laundering for a Ponzi scheme. It only lacked that. This church is crooked as a dogleg.

Uh, it appears that they only received funds from a scammer, not being involved in money laundering. A big difference not that they didn't do other questionable things.

[Robert A Whit]

Thank you for your input. However I am thinking that the Wesleyan church is probably what will best fit me. There are a couple around here.

On another note, I came across this article while looking at blogs mentioning various things about Mac Hammond and I wanted to know if it was just rumors, or if there was any truth. Interesting to say the least...

This was 2 years ago and obviously they are not in foreclosure anymore. Not sure who is the actual owner now, and the property tax records aren't popping up because of the recent land acquisition for their new wing and sign, thus it is being re-platted, etc.

http://minnesotaindependent.com/6397...ng-foreclosure

(emphases not mine; they were links that didn't copy over. See full article for the links)

As I have reported, I have been to many churches. Some appear to be in it for the money.
I had a pastor of a Baptist church as a client one time. We were riding around in my car and he admitted to me that to him, church is a business. I was at his church and it was rather modest so I doubt he was getting rich. I saw his car and it was just a used car of modest cost.

As to the church you believe fits, at least with the LDS, they all teach the same thing on the same Sunday. I enjoy the no pressure environment. I enjoy the way the people are all pro family and pro honesty.

I only hoped to see if you might check the church out. I would sit in the church on Sunday rather than sit down with the missionaries. We know that they have a goal. I don't have a goal. I only offered this word on the church since you sought advice.

I don't know why some treat church as a money making business. I saw it happen over and over with various churches.

Despite this, the Mormon church is far from poor. They don't pass collection plates but if members are willing to pay thithes, that can set you back about 10 percent. That adds up to a lot of cash. But they also do lots of good things even for non members. Such as helping those in need during and post Katrina.

[mundame]

Uh, it appears that they only received funds from a scammer, not being involved in money laundering. A big difference not that they didn't do other questionable things.

If you read carefully it looks like money laundering, and they had a track record of doing this sort of thing. I know something about this stuff because I know a woman who got involved in the Ponzi scheme that the FBI just shut down, Zeekler. They try to launder the money however they can because the law says the feds can "clawback" the money and give it back to the defrauded participants. I would guess the church was "holding" it for her for a while for a percentage, but the feds are onto this strategem.

I expect the staff of this church will be spending some time in jail shortly. They sound remarkably corrupt.

[fj1200]

If you read carefully it looks like money laundering, and they had a track record of doing this sort of thing. I know something about this stuff because I know a woman who got involved in the Ponzi scheme that the FBI just shut down, Zeekler. They try to launder the money however they can because the law says the feds can "clawback" the money and give it back to the defrauded participants. I would guess the church was "holding" it for her for a while for a percentage, but the feds are onto this strategem.

I expect the staff of this church will be spending some time in jail shortly. They sound remarkably corrupt.

I did, I disagree. Unless you have some better info. You have this uncanny ability to make huge leaps of logic.

[mundame]

In May, the church was served with papers demanding the return of $2.2 million in money it received from Gerard Cellette, who had been convicted of fraud. Cellette ran a Ponzi scheme and lawyers for the victims were attempting to collect the money from Living Word for remuneration.
The church said in a statement in May that it felt it shouldn’t have to give the money back to the victims because of its status as a church. “This lawsuit, on behalf of Mr. Cellette’s investors, to take back the funds from LWCC and repay the investors is unfair. Our church is essentially being asked to be the guarantor to principally out-of-state, sophisticated investors that made bad investments with Mr. Cellette.”
It’s not the first time the church has invoked religious privilege following questions about its finances.

1. A Ponzi-scammer GAVE them $2.2 million? Very unlikely.

2. This woman was convicted of fraud for her Ponzi scheme and this was the money she had made from it. We know this because victims' lawyers were trying to "claw back" this money, that she "gave" to the church.

3. The church is trying to stonewall the money recovery, on the basis that it's a church, as if that mattered.

4. They have invoked religious privilege before when their financial dealings were challenged. We don't know exactly what that means, but it looks to me as though they set themselves up as a money-laundering facility for a cut of the profits sequestered under the concept of church privilege.

5. My guess is that they will keep a percentage of the $2.2 million and give her back the rest under the table after the trouble dies down, or at least that's the scheme.

[fj1200]

1. A Ponzi-scammer GAVE them $2.2 million? Very unlikely.

2. This woman was convicted of fraud for her Ponzi scheme and this was the money she had made from it. We know this because victims' lawyers were trying to "claw back" this money, that she "gave" to the church.

3. The church is trying to stonewall the money recovery, on the basis that it's a church, as if that mattered.

4. They have invoked religious privilege before when their financial dealings were challenged. We don't know exactly what that means, but it looks to me as though they set themselves up as a money-laundering facility for a cut of the profits sequestered under the concept of church privilege.

5. My guess is that they will keep a percentage of the $2.2 million and give her back the rest under the table after the trouble dies down, or at least that's the scheme.

1. Even crooks give money.

2. And? Nothing new here.

3. OK.

4. Conjecture based on prejudice.

5. So we come to the conclusion that all of the above is just a "guess."

[logroller]

1. A Ponzi-scammer GAVE them $2.2 million? Very unlikely.

2. This woman was convicted of fraud for her Ponzi scheme and this was the money she had made from it. We know this because victims' lawyers were trying to "claw back" this money, that she "gave" to the church.

3. The church is trying to stonewall the money recovery, on the basis that it's a church, as if that mattered.

4. They have invoked religious privilege before when their financial dealings were challenged. We don't know exactly what that means, but it looks to me as though they set themselves up as a money-laundering facility for a cut of the profits sequestered under the concept of church privilege.

5. My guess is that they will keep a percentage of the $2.2 million and give her back the rest under the table after the trouble dies down, or at least that's the scheme.

1. "It is undisputed that Living Word and Go Ministries accepted these funds in good faith and honesty," Larson (the judge in the case) wrote. Even, "David Wymore, a Plymouth attorney, said he has seven clients who he believes lost a total of about $4 million. The money Cellette gave to the church was never his to donate because he acquired it by fraud, Wymore said. 'In essence, he was donating other people's money to the church,' Wymore said."
http://m.startribune.com/?id=103973258

2. "She"??? Gerard Celette? After a cursory read, you'll find that Celette is a man.

3 & 4. The church's argument was that Celette had colluded with investors to defraud, and thus were ineligible to be made whole. It had nothing to do with "being a church". Nonetheless, The argument failed.
5. Last Thing mentioned anywhere is an agreement to return the funds was reached between the church and the receiver. Have you evidence otherwise?

[avatar4321]

I'm undecided on your topic. The larger the SUCCESSFUL organization, the more skill required of its chief executive, thereby worthy of more compensation. A 7-10 million dollar building could serve the poor very well if used for showers, counseling, job workshops, soup kitchens, etc.

Preaching the Word of God should be done without financial compensation. Otherwise, you may be looking at priestcraft, which is the preaching to get money and fame rather than for the glory of God.

I've never been impressed with the mega churches personally. I won't begrudge anyone who find God through them. But I don't think that's really the way God wants us to live. I suppose if I did, Id be part of a Mega Church.

My suggestion for finding a Church:

1) Study the scriptures. Make sure they are preaching correct principles.
2) Get on your knees and humbly ask God for direction in this process.

I can't over emphasize number 2 my friend. God gives all men wisdom liberally. (Im confident women are included in that promise). He has a plan for you and if you are looking for the best way to worship Him, then the best source for direction on that is Him.

[avatar4321]

As my Sunday School leader said many wealthy church attendees/deacons don't like to be preached to by someone who makes considerably less than them or doesn't have the same station in life.

Then, no offense to wealthy church attendees, they are fools.

[avatar4321]

KK99, I think you are looking at the wrong things. The size or location of the church should not matter.
When my husband I looked for a church after moving to Huntington Beach from the Bay Area, I had a few qualifications. Mainly -- does the church speak to me? Does their philosophy and values mirror my own?

The church I attended in the Bay Area was located in a strip mall. The minister had another full time job. But his message spoke volumes, and the members were very devoted.
The church I attend now is larger. There are two pastors, a youth minister and a minister of music. It was recommended to me and I was impressed the first time I went. The lead pastor has a loud, commanding voice, and the service moves everyone. It is almost like a rock concert at time.
What I like best is the congregation. There are blacks, whites, Latinos and anyone who wants to wander in off the street. No offering plate is passed (the offering is taken in the foyer) and no one hawks their book.
I recommend attending a church that interests you and see how you are moved and how you are welcomed.

I may be going off topic, but shouldn't the question be "Does the Church teach the values of God?" rather than than "Does the Church's philosophy and values mirror my own?"

What's the point of going to Church if you aren't trying to learn God's will? What's the point if you aren't willing to repent and actually make changes in your life as you learn what God wants?

[KitchenKitten99]

Hey KK,

I don't think the size of the church necessarily means it has spiritual problems. Wanting a larger building to be able to reach a larger congregation is fine. But I think your instincts are good on this particular church. IMO, a pastor who is right with God, filled with the holy spirit, would not be living such a lavish lifestyle. It seems like a big red flag to me.

You will know the right church when sit through a service. The only thing that truly matters is the spiritual heart of your pastor, and based on your post, I'll bet you will have a feel for that when you hear him speak. Everything else is extraneous.

I wish you the very best in your search! It's so important for your children.

-Abbey

I have no issues with preachers/pastors who live a luxury life--if that life is supported by a career outside the church, not because of the church.