NYPD Commissioner admitted that cops target minorites in stop & frisk

[revelarts]

....
Question to libertarians and constitutional conservatives:
What would you tell the police officers to do in this situation?

What's legal and proper according to the constitution.

[taft2012]

What's legal and proper according to the constitution.

That's a very weak cop out. The ugly truth is, the police had a lot more leeway for the first 125 to 150 of this nation, until you liberal activists worked through the courts to rewrite the Constitution to your likings.

How about giving us some specifics? You're the authority on Constitutional rewritings, tell us what the police should or should not do in this situation. (Other than, 'do what's Constitutional and don't do what's unconstitutional).

I know what the Supreme Court case law says the police can do.... I want to know what liberals and pothead conservatives think the police can do.

When the the rubber meets the road of reality, the liberals and pothead conservatives find themselves out of their element.

[revelarts]

That's a very weak cop out. The ugly truth is, the police had a lot more leeway for the first 125 to 150 of this nation, until you liberal activists worked through the courts to rewrite the Constitution to your likings.

How about giving us some specifics? You're the authority on Constitutional rewritings, tell us what the police should or should not do in this situation. (Other than, 'do what's Constitutional and don't do what's unconstitutional).

When the the rubber meets the road of reality, the liberals and pothead conservatives find themselves out of their element.

the constitution is never a cop out it's the supreme law of the land you swear an oath to it. and BTW the 1st 125 -150 years they used to lynch blacks and shoot Indians with little or no trial, want to go back to that? IF you want to keep name calling and mischaracterizing I can go there Taft.

The problem seems to be Jack booted 3rd Reich Stasi police structure and some police who think they have a 6th sense and know a criminal when they see one.

look the Police can watch people all they like in the open, but until a crime is committed or moves appear to be being made to that effect they have no reasonable suspicion to stop or search or ticket anyone Taft. There No law against police stopping and talking, but people are not obliged to answer. And don't need to show freaking papers to walk the streets.

I get the impression that you say they should be arrested on sight or told to leave.
God forbid any black people go to China town to eat, shop or visits friends. got any stats on that.

[taft2012]

the constitution is never a cop out it's the supreme law of the land you swear an oath to it. and BTW the 1st 125 -150 years they used to lynch blacks and shoot Indians with little or no trial, want to go back to that? you want to name calling and mischaracterizing I can go there Taft.

The problem seems to be Jack booted 3rd Reich Stasi police structure and some police who think they have a 6th sense and know a criminal when they see one.

look the Police can watch people all they like in the open, but until a crime is committed or moves appear to be being made to that effect they have no reasonable suspicion to stop or search or ticket anyone Taft.

I get the impression that you say they should be arrested or told to leave.
God forbid any black people go to China town to eat, shop or visits friends. got any stats on that.

Translation: "When presented with a real-life situation I am unable to convert my knee-jerk liberal gibberish into real-life action. I am merely a theoretician and not to be taken seriously on concrete matters."

[taft2012]

You know Rev, you really are amazing. You can pontificate ad nauseum about how the police are acting unconstitutional, all ex post facto.

I give you a scenario and ask you what you would tell the police to do, and you go into a shell.

[revelarts]

Translation: "When presented with a real-life situation I am unable to convert my knee-jerk liberal gibberish into real-life action. I am merely a theoretician and not to be taken seriously on concrete matters."

Concrete matters?
Hypothetical blacks guys, in an Asian area were hypothetical crimes have been committed, by hypothetical black criminals.
that's real concrete.

and it appear that you that can't translate
"Police can watch and talk but not arrest, ticket or harass " into your concept of -concrete Police work- .
Which Translation might be what:" when people who look suspicious to cops, the cops should put their faces in the concrete."?

[taft2012]

Concrete matters?
Hypothetical blacks guys, in an Asian area were hypothetical crimes have been committed, by hypothetical black criminals.
that's real concrete.

That's precisely what the police have to cope with every day. All over the city, in every precinct, there are varying crime patterns.

They have to have the answers and act accordingly. You get to sit back in your Lay-Z Boy recliner with a fat spliff in your mouth and Monday morning quarterback from your cannabis-induced paranoid state.

and it appear that you that can't translate
"Police can watch and talk but not arrest, ticket or harass " into your concept of -concrete Police work- .
Which Translation might be what:" when people who look suspicious to cops, the cops should put their faces in the concrete."?

So your answer is to have the police sit there and watch until some old Chinese lady coming out of the subway gets knocked on the head with a crescent wrench? I figured as much, just as your national defense policy is to wait until troops are massed all up against our borders and remain uninvolved until they attack us.

You wouldn't consider the police waiting and watching suspects who so very clearly are fitting the crime pattern to be negligent?

Furthermore, this is a big city with a lot going on. The police don't have time to sit for hours and wait for something that may or may not happen. If the police who spotted this crew get called to an emergency elsewhere in the precinct, and then this robbery crew strikes after the police leave, would you consider that good police work was done?

[taft2012]

Hypothetical scenario: Into downtown Flushing, where the population is approximately 99% asian, there is a robbery pattern of a group of young black men robbing residents as they come up to the street out of the subway station.

One evening, two police officers observe a group of young men black men hanging around by a subway exit, not doing much of anything, other than watching people come out of the subway station.

Question to liberals and pothead conservatives: What would you tell the police officers to do in this situation?

And here's the answer:

It is reasonable to suspect that this subway station may be the scene of a robbery that fits the pattern
It is reasonable to suspect that the people exiting the station may be victimized
The youths hanging around the subway station fit the description of the robbery gang operating around subway stations
It is reasonable to suspect the group is sizing up victims based on the way they are doing nothing other than watching people leave the subway station.
There is reasonable suspicion to believe they could be the robbery gang.

A stop, question, and frisk is justified and legal, based on the situation and the totality of circumstances, including robbery being a violent felony. That's not my basis, or the NYPD's. That's case law from previous court rulings, that include location, descriptions, time of day, nature of offenses, etc.

Reasonable suspicion does not mean they did the robberies, that they are guilty of anything, or that they are under arrest.

Then, as the SQF is underway, Rev's favorite cameraman swings by and films the police for harassing people for "only being black".

[Voted4Reagan]

Concrete matters?
Hypothetical blacks guys, in an Asian area were hypothetical crimes have been committed, by hypothetical black criminals.
that's real concrete.

and it appear that you that can't translate
"Police can watch and talk but not arrest, ticket or harass " into your concept of -concrete Police work- .
Which Translation might be what:" when people who look suspicious to cops, the cops should put their faces in the concrete."?

Rev, here in NYC all policing is conducted based on patterns of crime and incidents reported. I think you are having a problem understanding this...

As someone said earlier NYC is divided into 76 different pcts. for policing. Not all of these areas are high crime areas. Areas like Bayside, Breezy Point, Little neck, Douglaston and others are very LOW crime areas. In places like East New York, Brownsville, Harlem, Hunts Point and Washington Heights and Harlem are very HIGH CRIME areas.

If the statistics show that Drug crimes are spiking in an area like Harlem where residency is 99% African American, Who is going to be the most likely person looked at? Who is most likely to be responsible for these crimes? Is it the white guy that is in the area on business or will they look at the crowds of African American males standing in a group in the parks and on the street corners? If the area is almost entirely Minority then Minorities are going to be subject to the most scrutiny until the statistics decline. NYC Neighborhoods are NOT racially diverse. They almost never have been.

Jews have Williamsburg, Crown Heights and Boro Park, The Irish and Italians predominate in The Rockaways, Breezy Point, Belle Harbor and Woodlawn as well as Seagate, Asians have a section of Sunset Park and ChinaTown, The Russians have Manhattan and Brighton Beach as well as a big piece of Sheepshead Bay.

The list goes on and on.... We police by occurances here, not based on whats politically correct. Minority areas that are mostly Black/Hispanic are where the majority of the crime occurs and it is usually Minority on Minority crime.

You think it's done out of spite and profiling, but in a neighborhood that is almost 100% Black who is the suspect most likely to be?

think about it....

[taft2012]

So your answer is to have the police sit there and watch until some old Chinese lady coming out of the subway gets knocked on the head with a crescent wrench?

From Federalist #23 by James Madison

It is our vision to have law enforcement stand by helplessly while suspects in a time, place, and location so accurately fitting a violent robbery pattern may freely konk an old Chinese lady on the head with a crescent wrenche. Only then may the constabulary take action. These are the liberties we envision.

[revelarts]

Taft V4R
neither one of your responses address my post.
you both talk about real crimes

Taft you set that senerio up to the edge of a crime, pass history, time of day, descriptions, actions, etc etc.

I posted a senerio where the guys appear to be doing nothing are in ther neighborhood across the street from there homes, have no record, and are ticketed for apparently No crime.
IT SEEMS YOU WILL NOT EVEN CONSIDER THAT THE EVENT IS REAL. or even acknowledge it as a hypothetical.

You NEVER address that. you ASSUME that there is a reason.
and then tell me about hypothetical REAL crimes. who said they're aren't real crimes, no one.
who says that blacks never commit crimes, no one.

the issue here is WHy are innocent people blacks and Hispanics getting frisked, BS tickets and arrested for just walking the streets?

Just saying 'well a lot of Blacks commit crimes' is no excuse, Im sorry.
Not every instance of Black/Hispanic people on the street is reasonable suspicion.

Other police have admitted to the practice. You call them names and Liars.
I'm not sure why so many here feel that it's Unthinkable that it is happening.
Or Why some here feel that it's somehow justified, because they are Black and Hispanic.

To me it's really not much different than the IRS targeting conservatives for IRS issues.
Or the Homeland Security naming Christian groups as potential terrorist and inspecting Churches or frisking pastors. Or Militia as terrorist and ticketing for handing out miltia info.
Or potentially harassing the Gun owners as potential mass shooters. just to be safe.
Either the constitution is for everyone or not.
no one expects perfection but lets not make excuses to be lacks on rights for some groups, it almost always turns around to bite everyone in the arse.
Equal treatment under the law is all I'm talking about here. it's what many conservatives say they want. sometime i wonder.

[Voted4Reagan]

Taft V4R
neither one of your responses address my post.
you both talk about real crimes

Taft you set that senerio up to the edge of a crime, pass history, time of day, descriptions, actions, etc etc.

I posted a senerio where the guys appear to be doing nothing are in ther neighborhood across the street from there homes, have no record, and are ticketed for apparently No crime.
IT SEEMS YOU WILL NOT EVEN CONSIDER THAT THE EVENT IS REAL. or even acknowledge it as a hypothetical.

You NEVER address that. you ASSUME that there is a reason.
and then tell me about hypothetical REAL crimes. who said they're aren't real crimes, no one.
who says that blacks never commit crimes, no one.

the issue here is WHy are innocent people blacks and Hispanics getting frisked, BS tickets and arrested for just walking the streets?

Just saying 'well a lot of Blacks commit crimes' is no excuse, Im sorry.
Not every instance of Black/Hispanic people on the street is reasonable suspicion.

Other police have admitted to the practice. You call them names and Liars.
I'm not sure why so many here feel that it's Unthinkable that it is happening.
Or Why some here feel that it's somehow justified, because they are Black and Hispanic.

To me it's really not much different than the IRS targeting conservatives for IRS issues.
Or the Homeland Security naming Christian groups as potential terrorist and inspecting Churches or frisking pastors. Or Militia as terrorist and ticketing for handing out miltia info.
Or potentially harassing the Gun owners as potential mass shooters. just to be safe.
Either the constitution is for everyone or not.
no one expects perfection but lets not make excuses to be lacks on rights for some groups, it almost always turns around to bite everyone in the arse.
Equal treatment under the law is all I'm talking about here. it's what many conservatives say they want. sometime i wonder.

Lets look at it like this... 2 neighborhoods only about 8 miles apart, which one should be monitored more closely?

BROWNSVILLE, BROOKLYN

The area is patrolled by the 73rd Precinct^[2] located at 1470 East New York Avenue. New York City Housing Authority (NYCHA) property in the area is patrolled by P.S.A. 2. It is part of Brooklyn Community Board 16. Brownsville is notable for having some of the highest rates of violent crime in New York City.

In 2010, Brownsville's population was 116,579 and the demographics were 80.3% Non-Hispanic Black or African American, 15.8% Hispanic/Latino, 1.2% Non-Hispanic White, 1.1% Asian/Pacific Islander and 1.6% described themselves as other.^[3] 29.9% of the population were High School graduates and 8.4% had a Bachelor's degree or higher. As of 2008, the median household income was $15,978. There were a total of 28,298 housing units in Brownsville.^[4]


BREEZY POINT, QUEENS

Breezy Point is a neighborhood in the New York City borough of Queens, located on the western end of the Rockaway peninsula, between Rockaway Inlet and Jamaica Bay on the landward side, and the Atlantic Ocean. The neighborhood is governed by Queens Community Board 14.^[1] The community is run by the Breezy Point Cooperative, in which all residents pay the maintenance, security, and community-oriented costs involved with keeping the community private. The cooperative owns the entire 500-acre (2 km²) community; residents own their homes and hold shares in the cooperative.^[2] Breezy Point and the Rockaways are less urbanized than most of the rest of New York City.

According to the United States Census Bureau, the community's ZIP code (11697) is 98.2% white and has the nation's 2nd highest concentration of Irish-Americans, at 60.3% as of the United States Census, 2000 (Squantum, in Quincy, Massachusetts, is #1, at 65%).^[4] It functions mainly as a summer get-away for many residents of New York. Estimates put summer residency at 12,000, while year-round residency was 4337 in the most recent Census.^[4]
Due to its history of Irish-American population, Breezy Point has been called the "Irish Riviera." Since the mid 90's, Italians and Jews have also moved into Breezy Point, making the concentration of Irish-American's drop. ^[5]


The changing economic fortunes of this area had varying effects on its crime rates. The 101st Precinct, with its high rises and housing projects in the eastern section of the peninsula and in Far Rockaway — one of the largest concentrations of public housing in the city — was hit hard by crime and drug use. In 1993, the area had nearly 2,850 incidents of major crime, including about 710 robberies, 800 burglaries and 460 car thefts, compared to 121 robberies, 136 burglaries and 78 car thefts, respectively, for the same categories in 2010.
The 100th Precinct, with the insular, gated community of Breezy Point on the western end and affluent Belle Harbor in the middle, had significantly less crime, even at the height of the crack epidemic.

************************************************** ************************************************

So Rev.... What neighborhood requires Policing, Stop and Frisk and other types of preemptive intervention?

Is it Breezy Point? Which is almost 100% White and has almost ZERO CRIME.

Or...

Is it Brownsville, Where the population is 100% Black/Latino and crime is off the Chart?

Pick one

[revelarts]

Lets look at it like this... 2 neighborhoods only about 8 miles apart, which one should be monitored more closely?
.....
************************************************** ************************************************
So Rev.... What neighborhood requires Policing, Stop and Frisk and other types of preemptive intervention?
Is it Breezy Point? Which is almost 100% White and has almost ZERO CRIME.
Or...Is it Brownsville, Where the population is 100% Black/Latino and crime is off the Chart?
Pick one

And again notice how i try to answer your scenarios but you guys rarely answer mine. Again you've just dismiss/ignore everything i posted and come back with extreme cases. where there are NEVER any innocent blacks or Latinos. why should i answer you when your not honestly responding to the scenarios and facts i post.

But ok, 1st of all why do guys you always pick the extreme cases?
Here's Charlie Manson and here's Mother Teressa which one needs blah blah
..c'mon. Not every neighborhood is that bad, and not all blacks and Latinios in NY are drop outs or poor. (and even if they were being a poor drop out is not a crime) Not all whites live in the Irish riviera. is that right?
But.. ok i'll play along. and give you the courtesy and honesty of a strait answer.

OK so Mostly rich and mostly poor is that what you said. .....
And no mainly you said mostly white and mostly black/latino ..but well never mind I'm sure race wouldn't make a difference.
But Obviously with the lack of education, the poverty and I'm sure fatherless children they have problems that are not going to be fixed by just "preemptive policing".

But you started with the questions which neighborhoods need monitoring?
the one with the high crime rate, needs more monitoring there is no doubt.
But then at the end you ask
'which one requires stop and frisk and other types of preemptive intervention?'
i say neither.

that's my point.
where heck did the police get the authority to preemptively stop crime? And cross the line on the Constitution to stop and frisk without reason. Living in a high crime area is not a reason. and reasonable suspicion.

I've made the distinction before, but somehow folks think i'm missing the point.
I know many folks here BELIEVE if crime or terror or the weather is bad we can or "are required" to toss the constitution in the Sh!T can.
Sorry but i do not.
The problem is not the constitution is to strict to catch criminals, we have the biggest prison population in the world and the biggest in human history. Following the constitution may help. Why not try following the oath for a change.

And BTW How many people work on wall st.? Anyone checking the crime stats in that neighborhood? robberies, embezzlements, frauds, prostitution of all kinds, blackmail, drug abuse. Any NYPD doing any preemptive policing there?

[jimnyc]

Here's Charlie Manson and here's Mother Teressa which one needs blah blah

I'm pretty confident no one did any such thing here. His comparison was EXTREMELY legit about neighborhoods a few miles apart, but with different crimes and different make up of citizens in their cities. No offense Rev, as I love you to death, but you have an uncanny way of stretching what other people say for effect, hoping the readers will believe what you say is what the other did in fact say, when they didn't. For example...

Rev seems to only like the police if HE is in an emergency life saving situation, otherwise its obvious he feels police have little to no value at all in a civilized society.

[taft2012]

Taft V4R
neither one of your responses address my post.
you both talk about real crimes

Taft you set that senerio up to the edge of a crime, pass history, time of day, descriptions, actions, etc etc.

I posted a senerio where the guys appear to be doing nothing are in ther neighborhood across the street from there homes, have no record, and are ticketed for apparently No crime.

And that's the entire point.

The police are acting under a set of facts that you're completely ignorant of. The guys I described sitting around outside the subway station could very well turn out NOT to be the guys in the robbery pattern, but instead be some guys heading to play a basketball game waiting for the last member of the team to come out of the subway.

When you are given a fact pattern that the police would normally have, you can see how it is reasonable to suspect they are on the "edge of a crime."

But when you don't have those facts, you would conclude the police just stopped these guys "because they're black."