Rand Paul on vaccinations

[Nukeman]

Why would I need to show proof of anything I'm not arguing? My point above was: Companies/Govt should Ensure safety of drugs; not the other way around - people shouldn't have to prove anything. .

Uh they do Darin its called the FDA!!!! Drugs are tested for efficacy and dangers for YEARS before they ever make it to market....

I'm saying...LIBERTY should dictate. Parental decisions should be the land of the law.

Seriously have you seen the type of people that have kids??? Mouth breathing Mtn Dew swigging neanderthals that cant put a coherent sentence together let alone make a life or death decision for "their" children and others!!

Nobody with vaccinated kids has a valid worry; nobody who is vaccinated should worry.

Gotta say bullshit on this one to D. 4 types of people out there 1. vaccinated and sticks, 2. vaccinated and doesn't ever take( about 3 % of the population) 3. Too young to receive, and 4. Immuno-compromised with other conditions such as cancer.

There's a case IF a person was infected they could pass that to another non-infected soul; well...Got it. doesn't matter. Not worth the Govt mandating vaccination because the gov't generally is f'd up. It's akin to if the govt decided to tell us how to give our money to charity. Oh yeah...they already do that. Okay - it's like if the Govt decided to take 50% of what I leave to my kids; my estate after I die - for the good of the nation. Shit. They do that too

Although I agree with the over reaching of the govt I must say I disagree with your premise on vaccinations, I can agree its up to you and I also can say if you are willing to risk your children's lives and those of the people in category 3 and 4 listed above I should have the right to DENY you admittance to any and all public places where you can and will infect others!!!!!!!!!

Do you believe that school is the only place someone may be exposed to various diseases?

WRONG ANY public place they can be infected!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, if a parent doesn't want their child vaccinate, then they shouldn't have to pay the taxes that support the school system. Right?

NOPE their choice much like a parents choice to send to private school or home school, doesn't change their community responsibility (my gosh I sound like a bleeding heart liberal there)

[revelarts]

A good round up:

http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/201850/

Hover institute Does some good work sometimes.
but pointing out that vaccine doubting are POLITICALLY LEFT is something that's really here nor there.
the science and -as has been pointed out several times- Parental rights are what should have the day.
I'm SHOCKED that those on the right want the Gov't to FORCE people to medicate... or else. (not really shocked)

There's going to be a label for those with questions soon "Vaccine Deniers" "anti-vaxers" or some such to stop people from thinking. along with "idiots" and "fake erudite" "mouth breathers"
all those names shed a lot of scientific light on the issue and are i'm sure winning hearts and minds. trying to Shame people into vaccines.


the founders discussed medical freedom as an amendment I wish they had included it.


I'll just note something i noted before and a NEW bit.

The recent outbreaks of measles in Canada and the United States came as a shock to many public health experts. But not to Dr. Gregory Poland, one of the world's most admired and most advanced thinkers in the field of vaccinology.The measles vaccine has failed, he explained two years ago in a prescient paper, "The re-emergence of measles in developed countries." In that paper, he warned that due to factors that most haven't noticed, measles has come back to be a serious public health threat. Thankfully, in that paper and elsewhere he also spelled out in no-nonsense fashion what now needs to be done.
Dr. Poland is no vaccine denier. Not only is he among the harshest and most outspoken critics of the "irrationality of the antivaccinationists," he is also one of the strongest proponents for vaccines and the good that they can do. As Professor of Medicine and founder and leader of the Mayo Clinic's Vaccine Research Group, one of the world's largest vaccine research organizations; as editor-in-chief of the peer-reviewed scientific journal,Vaccine; as recipient of numerous awards; as chair of vaccine data monitoring committees for pharmaceutical giant Merck; as patent holder in various vaccines processes; as someone who enjoys special employee status with the Centers for Disease Control and the U.S. Department of Defense and as someone who has sat on every federal committee that has dealt with vaccines, no one can accuse him of seeing vaccines from a narrow perspective.
And he sees the need for a major rethink, after concluding that the current measles vaccine is unlikely to ever live up to the job expected of it:
"Outbreaks are occurring even in highly developed countries where vaccine access, public health infrastructure, and health literacy are not significant issues. This is unexpected and a worrisome harbinger -- measles outbreaks are occurring where they are least expected," he wrote in his 2012 paper, listing the "surprising numbers of cases occurring in persons who previously received one or even two documented doses of measles-containing vaccine."
During the 1989-1991 U.S. outbreaks, 20 per cent to 40 per cent of those affected had received one to two doses. In a 2011 outbreak in Canada, "over 50 per cent of the 98 individuals had received two doses of measles vaccine."
Dr. Poland noted 15 U.S. outbreaks between 2005 and 2011 and 33 in Europe in 2011 alone, involving more than 30,000 known cases. Meanwhile, the "UK has declared measles once again endemic ... such outbreaks result from both failure to vaccinate, and vaccine failure."
People's failure to get vaccinated is deplorable, Dr. Poland often stresses. But the more fundamental problem stems from the vaccine being less effective in real life than predicted, with a too-high failure rate -- between 2 per cent and 10 per cent do not develop expected antibodies after receiving the recommended two shots. Because different people have different genetic makeups, the vaccine is simply a dud in many, failing to provide the protection they think they've acquired.....


http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/im-...nt-outbreaks-1


Just as a personal note,

My little brother got the measles when he was around 2 years old. He had been vaccinated, my mom was a nurse and did everything by the book. He was quarantined in the hospital until he recovered. Thankfully with no issues.

the rates of Measles has been much higher but the death rate could honestly be questioned dropping for reasons other than vaccines. see chart below.

"....as early as 1932, doctors began using cod-liver oil (high in vitamin A) to treat measles and ended up lowering the mortality rate significantly. In 1990, the New England Journal of Medicine confirmed that vitamin A supplements significantly reduce measles complications and death rates. It would be interesting to know what kind of impact essential oils such as oil of oregano with antiviral qualities...."

http://vaxtruth.org/2012/01/measles-perspective/

look the vaccine was a MIRACLE!!!! right? maybe? no?
Can we talk or is the above Information just to be IGNORED?
Are you a fool to question the effectiveness or CONSIDER alternatives?

honest answers

[gabosaurus]

Do you believe that school is the only place someone may be exposed to various diseases?

So, if a parent doesn't want their child vaccinate, then they shouldn't have to pay the taxes that support the school system. Right?

If I don't want my taxes to go to the military, can I stop paying taxes?
Parents have the right to not vaccinate their children. It falls under the category of extreme stupidity. These are often the same people who don't believe in medical care. They believe that God will keep their children alive and healthy through divine intervention.

If you want to be a member of some bizarre non-vaccination cult, cool. Find a commune someplace with other like stupid people and keep to yourselves.

[Kathianne]

What Rev is discussing. Herd immunity though helps the 1% that is resistant to the vaccine. It also helps those that CANNOT be immunized. The flakes that choose not to immunize their kids are creating the gap that breaks down the herd immunity.

To a great degree those choosing not to immunize are the 'very educated' and likely (not able to prove) undocumented illegal aliens and their offspring.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/...s-maybe-think/

...Among the 51 measles cases linked directly to Disneyland, six of the people had received their measles, mumps and rubella vaccine, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.It should come as little surprise when the unvaccinated get sick with the measles. As viruses go, this one packs a mighty punch. Nine of out 10 unvaccinated people exposed to the measles virus will get the measles. That’s a whopping 90 percent.


But why hadn’t the vaccine protected these six people who had been vaccinated?


Here’s the thing. The MMR vaccine is very effective, but it’s not 100 percent preventative. Some people who get the vaccine are still at risk of contracting the disease. Large numbers of vaccinated people act as a firewall that prevent the disease from spreading to those who are vulnerable. The vaccinated protect the unvaccinated. That’s known as “herd immunity.” But as more people opt not to get vaccinated, or not to get their children vaccinated, the virus has more portals to creep through, more people to infect. And those people sneeze and cough, releasing the virus into the air, and that fuels the spread of the disease.


Some parents opt out of the MMR vaccine, often due to thoroughly discredited studies that link it to autism. Simply put, if everyone got the vaccine, the virus would have nowhere to go. The unvaccinated keep the measles alive.


But let’s back up. The MMR vaccine works by introducing tiny live amounts of the three viruses — measles, mumps and rubella — to provoke an immune response in the body that serves as a lifelong protective shield. It comes in two doses. Typically the first is administered at 12 months and the second at 4 or 5 years old. The first dose provides 95 percent protection. But 5 percent of patients have immune systems that don’t respond to these antibodies. The second kindergarten-age dose bolsters the coverage to 99 percent.

“But you still have 1 percent of people who have two doses of the vaccine who we call non-responders,” Patsy Stinchfield, director of Infection Prevention and Control and the Children’s Immunization Project at Children’s Hospitals and Clinics of Minnesota.

...

[gabosaurus]

Looking for the "all natural" way of life? There's nothing more natural than dying of measles.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/c...ination-nature

[Kathianne]

Looking for the "all natural" way of life? There's nothing more natural than dying of measles.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/c...ination-nature

From Gabby's posted link:

...I believe that it is good to be sceptical of massive, opaque government agencies and the way that they exploit people’s innate fears in order to funnel profits to pharmaceutical giants (and the diet industry, and defence contractors, and banks, and oil companies, and on and on and on). However, I have never been so doggedly suspicious of the government’s canoodling with big business that it seemed worth letting an infant baby go blind, develop seizures and mental degeneration, and die of
measles-induced panencephalitis.<iframe id="google_ads_iframe_/59666047/theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/ng_1" name="google_ads_iframe_/59666047/theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/ng_1" width="300" height="250" scrolling="no" marginwidth="0" marginheight="0" frameborder="0" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif; font-size: medium; line-height: 24px; text-align: center; border-width: 0px; vertical-align: bottom; background-color: transparent;"></iframe>

...

Yeah, 'responsible idiot parents' with multiple degrees.

[darin]

Uh they do Darin its called the FDA!!!! Drugs are tested for efficacy and dangers for YEARS before they ever make it to market....

That doesn't stop anything bro. Follow the dollars. If there's a risk involved, however slight, the choice should be solely upon the parents. Vaccines CAN cause reactions in children. Doesn't matter if it's good for the whole nation, vaccines CAN cause terrible reactions and even death in kids. Just irresponsible to claim 100% safety. A recent study in China showed adverse drug reactions in kids were caused by, in 42% of cases, by vaccines. Is that study valid? I dunno. But it brings a question: Can the Government decide the risk is so small as to force parents into giving it to their kids? Read it yourself. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3933652/

Seriously have you seen the type of people that have kids??? Mouth breathing Mtn Dew swigging neanderthals that cant put a coherent sentence together let alone make a life or death decision for "their" children and others!!

Sucks, doesn't it.

Gotta say bullshit on this one to D. 4 types of people out there 1. vaccinated and sticks, 2. vaccinated and doesn't ever take( about 3 % of the population) 3. Too young to receive, and 4. Immuno-compromised with other conditions such as cancer.

How does that differ from what I wrote? Nobody who has the vaccine should worry about catching it. Nobody who decides to not-take it should worry.

Although I agree with the over reaching of the govt I must say I disagree with your premise on vaccinations, I can agree its up to you and I also can say if you are willing to risk your children's lives and those of the people in category 3 and 4 listed above I should have the right to DENY you admittance to any and all public places where you can and will infect others!!!!!!!!!

Of course I'm not worried about risking my kids because my kids' lives are NOT at risk because they are vaccinated. Category 3 and 4 folks need to be extra careful.

WRONG ANY public place they can be infected!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Was my question wrong? do you know my doctor - after reportedly speaking with CDC - suggested I avoid any and all further vaccinations? I'm unsure what my childhood vaccinations were, but say they build an HIV vaccine. Should I get it and risk death, or take reasonable precautions? It's like peanut allergies - should all of society bannish peanuts for the few who are at risk? Should the peanut allergy folks be required to live in a bubble because of their affliction? I'm saying - do you support requiring a govt-mandated vaccine for people to simply leave their house?

NOPE their choice much like a parents choice to send to private school or home school, doesn't change their community responsibility (my gosh I sound like a bleeding heart liberal there)

My responsibility to my family is greater than that to my community.
I bet you're gonna start driving a prius and move to San Fransisco, buddy.

:beers:

[jimnyc]

Of course I'm not worried about risking my kids because my kids' lives are NOT at risk because they are vaccinated.

My responsibility to my family is greater than that to my community.

Which is exactly why you chose to have them vaccinated, to protect them, and because it's necessary for schooling and such.

Also, no one ever addressed the money. With the $$$$$ that the health issues costs for outbreaks and such from non-vaccinated - WHO is paying for it? Are the parents and those ill paying for these things 100%? Including care, isolation, medication, cleanup...? Do you think anyone else should have to pay a single penny towards their care if they refuse to take precautions that could have prevented the illness?

[jimnyc]

I have a question.

In all this "push" to have our kids vaccinated, just how many of the illegals are up to date on their shots?

Likely none, and I doubt those in charge today are even thinking of that, much too busy getting them their drivers licenses.

But that's a good one you bring up. Folks coming to live here should have like 30-60 days to prove or get fully immunized so that they don't turn into little walking incubators that like to also eat up our welfare services (and no, not those welfare eaters, not the lifer black folks that know nothing else...).

[darin]

Which is exactly why you chose to have them vaccinated, to protect them, and because it's necessary for schooling and such.

Right - MY choice. I weighed the evidence and went with it. Was not forced upon me by the government.

Also, no one ever addressed the money. With the $$$$$ that the health issues costs for outbreaks and such from non-vaccinated - WHO is paying for it? Are the parents and those ill paying for these things 100%? Including care, isolation, medication, cleanup...? Do you think anyone else should have to pay a single penny towards their care if they refuse to take precautions that could have prevented the illness?

of course not. Nobody is EVER refused basic health care for inability to pay; conversely, if that bankrupts people that's fine.

[jimnyc]

Right - MY choice. I weighed the evidence and went with it. Was not forced upon me by the government.

Of course, it's called common sense. You wanted your kids to stay healthy, and be a part of the rest of society that works together to prevent the spread of diseases/illnesses.

of course not. Nobody is EVER refused basic health care for inability to pay; conversely, if that bankrupts people that's fine.

Not true at all, hospitals CAN refuse basic treatment. The ONLY thing they "must" treat are emergencies. If you walk into a hospital with a general flu, headache, anxiety - and don't have insurance, they CAN very well tell you that they cannot treat you. And often, they will go to community based hospitals that will in fact cover these folks. Now, WHO do you think ultimately ends up paying for the services if the patient cannot? Someone still has to fork over the dough, or take a loss. And it's possible it's because someone refused to get vaccinated.

[jimnyc]

One good thing from this thread - I don't see anyone trying to defend the old idiot and his organization claiming that it was the USA responsible for the Charlie Hedbo attacks. Paul needs to be euthanized like an old horse.

[darin]

Of course, it's called common sense. You wanted your kids to stay healthy, and be a part of the rest of society that works together to prevent the spread of diseases/illnesses.

But if i thought the vaccines would HARM my kids like they harm ME? I'd be in jail by now for refusing what some of you suggest is GOOD.

Not true at all, hospitals CAN refuse basic treatment. The ONLY thing they "must" treat are emergencies. If you walk into a hospital with a general flu, headache, anxiety - and don't have insurance, they CAN very well tell you that they cannot treat you. And often, they will go to community based hospitals that will in fact cover these folks. Now, WHO do you think ultimately ends up paying for the services if the patient cannot? Someone still has to fork over the dough, or take a loss. And it's possible it's because someone refused to get vaccinated.

That's what I meant. When it comes to things like "OMG I'm gonna DIE" hospitals can't refuse; but we're getting into 'who is the cause for high health care costs' argument (short answer: WE are. The people).

[jimnyc]

But if i thought the vaccines would HARM my kids like they harm ME? I'd be in jail by now for refusing what some of you suggest is GOOD.

Literally millions of lives have been saved by vaccines over the years. If everyone refused, we would be back where we were prior to vaccines, with the mortality rate falling through the floor and people dying needlessly.

And no, you wouldn't be in jail for refusing, who stated as much? Vaccines are not mandatory, just rightfully mandatory if you plan on doing certain things that can potentially harm others. I have no issue if someone wants to needlessly place their children in harms way, that's their right - but it's my right and others right to not be placed in harms way due to others. And yes, even the vaccinated are in harms way, as they can still potentially get illnesses and diseases from those refusing.

If it's NOT good as you are implying - you would knowingly send your kids into a school with 95% of the kids being not-vaccinated and take chances with the kids, and just hope that the vaccines protect them, and that they aren't part of the percentage that catch the illnesses from those refusing? If you have a Mom with cancer, would you feel comfortable allowing her to go anywhere at all? Or would she need to be in a hospital room indefinitely? What if you had a child with immune deficiency? He/she is shit out of luck, and such parents should deal with it themselves and keep these kids at home indefinitely, so as not to put others that refuse to vaccinate out of their ways?

I agree with you, family comes first, always will. But such a family should be ostracized from any community and left to deal with the consequences all by themselves so as not to put others in harms way. One cannot put family first - and then flip their noses at community responsibility.

[gottago]

If I don't want my taxes to go to the military, can I stop paying taxes?
Parents have the right to not vaccinate their children. It falls under the category of extreme stupidity. These are often the same people who don't believe in medical care. They believe that God will keep their children alive and healthy through divine intervention.

If you want to be a member of some bizarre non-vaccination cult, cool. Find a commune someplace with other like stupid people and keep to yourselves.

Certainly you can stop paying taxes. According to Harry Reid, they are voluntary.

But you missed the point. If everyone in the school is vaccinated, then the people who are not vaccinated should not be able to infect them, eh?