well said, GW... especially the part in bold...Originally Posted by GW in Ohio
Recovering Republican
well said, GW... especially the part in bold...
Lost your job? Thank the republicans!
Lost your house? Thank the republicans!
Lost your life savings? Thank the republicans!
Lost your health care? Thank the republicans!
Lost all Hope? Thank the republicans!
Extra Heavy
100% Projection.
"... whenever any number of men, calling themselves a government, do anything to another man, or to his property, which they had no right to do as individuals, they thereby declare themselves trespassers, robbers, or murderers, according to the nature of their acts." - Lysander Spooner
Gunny's nightmare
Not quite. He's got you down to a T.
Extra Heavy
100% pathological.
"... whenever any number of men, calling themselves a government, do anything to another man, or to his property, which they had no right to do as individuals, they thereby declare themselves trespassers, robbers, or murderers, according to the nature of their acts." - Lysander Spooner
Gunny's nightmare
Conservative Libertarian
Okay, our founding fathers were libertarian deists, hence why they made the government so small. Initially, they wanted a true republic, with no House, and no President, just the Senate and the Supreme Court. They purposely put in the first amendment separating Church & State, period. It's in the first amendment, for proof pick up ANY copy of the constitution and read, and then, while you're at it, go ahead and read the rest, it's really a good read.
Now, as to the whole christian nation thing, the argument is moot, and useless. You put up a challenge that a singer, who came around after the founding father had died off, wrote a single line in a song, and to you, that is proof that we were founded as a Christian Nation. I hate to break this to you, man, but we were founded in 1776, and recognized by England in 1783, which is just a might bit before that whole 1813 point.
Now, our most cherished principle read like this:
First Amendment – Freedom of religion, speech, press, and peaceable assembly as well as the right to petition the government.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Second Amendment – Right to keep and bear arms.
A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Third Amendment – Protection from quartering of troops.
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Fifth Amendment – Due process, double jeopardy, self-incrimination, private property.
No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Sixth Amendment – Trial by jury and other rights of the accused.
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.
Seventh Amendment – Civil trial by jury.
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Eighth Amendment – Prohibition of excessive bail, as well as cruel and unusual punishment.
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Ninth Amendment – Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Tenth Amendment – Powers of states and people.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
I used the shortened version to catch the highlights, as well as to be brief about it. I have enough faith in Christ to put my cross down for the greater good. Many Christians I have seen lack such a strength of faith.
Gunny's nightmare
Lost me here. Proof?
Conservative Libertarian
Okay, quick and dirty summation here, The founding fathers believed that God set down all the rules of the universe right back at the beginning, and that, in order for us to have free will, he would naturally have to step back (Deism). Libertarians believe the same of government, that liberty is best served when the government is more circumcept, allowing its people more room to breathe. Our forefathers were of profound faith, and they understood that what America needed was religious protection, which could only be done by divorcing the church from the state.
As for proof, this has been in just about every history book north and south that deals with the founding fathers, so it shouldn't be too hard for you to find it. Beyond that, I work for Colonial Williamsburg as a historical Interpreter, and, since Williamsburg was host to the Founding Fathers on numerous occassions (Take a tour of the Raleigh Tavern and it will be mentioned as a regular stop for them, since it was so close to the capital), I have been bludgeoned with the history for the past 7 years pretty thoroughly. Further, I have a graduates degree in Museum Education through the College of William & Mary, so again, I've been fairly well bludgeoned with the Colonial History.
Now, this by no means is any attack on Christianity, when not taken to a fundamentalist level, Christianity is a very good thing (hence why I follow it), as is Judaica, Buddhism, Taoism, Bushido, Muslim, Asatru, and Wicca to name a few. The case here before us though, is that religion and politics do not mix, and our founders understood this, hence the divide. Yes, the majority of our culture is of one Christian group or another, but the whole point is to serve liberty equally to all, to keep the religion out of politics, so that when we debate the course of our country, we do it with reason, so that we do not polarize into factions. Most people, as well, are only lip-service Christians (You mean I have to wake up early sunday? Man, I am too hungover to be going to church on Sunday).
Theocracies just don't work (example: ANYWHERE in the Middle East), because every religious text out there says the same thing: Mine is the one true way, all others are false.
Gunny's nightmare
The deism argument falls flat whenever its tried, as is the theocrat one. Get real man.
Southpark Liberal
And don't forget the Massachusetts Bay Colony...The Founding Fathers saw the horrors that could be perpetrated in a theocracy first hand with that inbred bunch.
Gunny's nightmare
And look what they turned into: The Gay State.
left coast isolationist
if america was not founded by christians......who was it founded by?
"I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is."
~Albert Camus
Gunny's nightmare
According to the Liberals: Deists. They use this argument because the Founders were anti-Angican, ince the official Church of England claimed the King was ordained by God. The fact is, of course, that the Founders were Christians who had no respect for that particular denomination, instead citing "Natures God", One who "created all Men equal", and who was of course, Jesus.
A typical battle cry among the Patriots who battled the British was "We have no King but Jesus".
Conservative Libertarian
In other words, you can't shoot my argument down. That's just plain sad, man.
You overlooked the meat, just to look for the parts you would be able to shoot down, except, you didn't even do that well. There is no point in a talk with you on this or any other point that could be made, because, in the end, you will disregard all logic, reason, and proof, to grasp for an argument that has no foundation.
We were not founded as a Christian Nation, we are founded as a nation of all religion, of all cultures. Now for The Jesus solution, “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” (Matthew 22:21).
When did I say Deists weren't christians? The point was that the USA was not founded as a Christian NATION, as per glockmail's initial point. They are two separate things. That's part and parcel to the whole problem of the discussion, is to look at what we were founded on, versus our founders' religion. Even though, by and large, many were christian, we were founded separate of religion, in order for religion to be free for all. the whole reason we had as many immigrants at first was because of the religious persecution that was rampant in england against Catholics, specifically roman catholics (Due to the Church of England having broken of from the Vatican some time before. also responsible for the influx of Irish we got, who were more than 90% roman Catholics.)
Gunny's nightmare
1. Your argument was shot down deep within this thread. Its a shame you didn't read and comprehend that. That's just plain sad, man.
2. Perhaps you can point out the difference between Catholics and Roman Catholics for us.
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