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    Quote Originally Posted by pete311 View Post
    This debate is going to die unless you have actual responses to my replies.
    Your debate style is to pull wiki quotes et al and try to fine tune semantics about yer religion. Science is not as politicaly correct as you discribe.

    Most theories start where the hypothesis attempts to describe observation. The Greeks, Chinese and Persans obsevered similarities in life and theorized that life evolved from organism to organism.

    That particular part of the theory still has merrit.

    As mankind learned from observation the theory obviously didn't explain the source, (the fundamental flaw from the onset), and also lacked a cohesive verifiable mechanism to develope new organisms from earlier ones, (the second major flaw).

    Darwin proposed a mechanism for how things changed from a single ancestor through one at a time random changes where benifitual changes resulted in better chance of survival.

    Science disproved that mechanism due to complexity of components, (complex organs), and the complexity of all life that Darwin could not have known about.

    The origin of life. (By design or random occurance), is fundamental to the success or failure of both very old competing theories no matter ho you and Missile dance with the written quotes in wiki and elsewhere of fellow believers.

    The mechanism of change is the second profound weakness that SCIENCE, (advances in cellular technology has shown). Modificantions of Darwin still don't fit all observations or explain where life came from. Evolution is not a fact it is a theory in flux.


    Quote Originally Posted by pete311 View Post
    The above is a collection of my "religion", conspiracies and "chit". awesome. I have nothing to add until PmP replies.
    Look in the mirror yer a true believer.
    Last edited by OldMercsRule; 04-16-2010 at 09:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pete311 View Post
    Maybe that is a sign of your communication skills. I gave you a reasonable answer to "why does it continue to spend a portion of its life as a crawling creature". If it wasn't sufficient I again am confused what you are asking for.
    you seem incapable of wrapping your mind around the questions of "why?"......as for your response, it should be obvious that since the two stages of the creature do not exist simultaneously, it never "competes with itself", regardless of form......thus your response is nonsensical.....
    Last edited by PostmodernProphet; 04-16-2010 at 09:50 AM.
    ...full immersion.....

  3. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by PostmodernProphet View Post
    you seem incapable of wrapping your mind around the questions of "why?"......as for your response, it should be obvious that since the two stages of the creature do not exist simultaneously, it never "competes with itself", regardless of form......thus your response is nonsensical.....
    It seems nonsensical only because you've misread the quote. It does not "competes with itself". That quote does not exist in my quote that I posted. The quote is saying that because the caterpillar has two distinct stages, each stage can coexist in the same space without competing against each other. Not itself. The ecosystem can then support twice as many of the same species.

  4. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldMercsRule View Post
    Science disproved that mechanism due to complexity of components, (complex organs), and the complexity of all life that Darwin could not have known about.
    Please provide a link where science has disproven natural selection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pete311 View Post
    It seems nonsensical only because you've misread the quote. It does not "competes with itself". That quote does not exist in my quote that I posted. The quote is saying that because the caterpillar has two distinct stages, each stage can coexist in the same space without competing against each other. Not itself. The ecosystem can then support twice as many of the same species.
    omigorsh......no, it can't... if there are sufficient leaves to feed X number of caterpillars there can only be X number of caterpillars....the fact that they later turn into butterflies doesn't mean they didn't eat the same number of leaves......
    ...full immersion.....

  6. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldMercsRule View Post
    Look in the mirror yer a true believer.
    Any time I am wrong I will admit it. If the facts stop making sense and experts start to move in a different direction, so will I. You however will not, because you are deluded.

    "When you subscribe to a religion, you substitute focused, independent thought for nebulous group-think. Instead of learning to discern truth on your own, you’re told what to believe. This doesn’t accelerate your spiritual growth; on the contrary it puts the brakes on your continued conscious development. "
    http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...ve-a-religion/
    Last edited by pete311; 04-16-2010 at 09:11 PM.

  7. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missileman View Post
    Please provide a link where science has disproven natural selection.

    Yer fellow true believer: Pete gave this 17 year old cite, to try to show how yer precious religion has morphed from Darwin's kindergarten kool aid that you tend ta cornsume. There are other more recent cites if you care to go back and review my posts in this thread.

    You need to hit the books yerself as I already know yer religion is under serious stress and don't need to do yer homewerk for ya as yer obviously not readin' the cites in me posts.

    My point still stands: Evolution is a very old theory that fails to properly fit observations. It is not irrufutably proven nor is it a "fact".


    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/modern-synthesis.html

    The Modern Synthesis of Genetics and Evolution
    Copyright © 1993-1997 by Laurence Moran
    [Last Update: January 22, 1993]



    Many people do not understand current ideas about evolution. The following is a brief summary of the modern consensus among evolutionary biologists.

    The idea that life on Earth has evolved was widely discussed in Europe in the late 1700's and the early part of the last century. In 1859 Charles Darwin supplied a mechanism, namely natural selection, that could explain how evolution occurs. Darwin's theory of natural selection helped to convince most people that life has evolved and this point has not been seriously challenged in the past one hundred and thirty years.

    It is important to note that Darwin's book "The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection" did two things. It summarized all of the evidence in favor of the idea that all organisms have descended with modification from a common ancestor, and thus built a strong case for evolution. In addition Darwin advocated natural selection as a mechanism of evolution. Biologists no longer question whether evolution has occurred or is occurring. That part of Darwin's book is now considered to be so overwhelmingly demonstrated that is is often referred to as the FACT of evolution. However, the MECHANISM of evolution is still debated.

    We have learned much since Darwin's time and it is no longer appropriate to claim that evolutionary biologists believe that Darwin's theory of Natural Selection is the best theory of the mechanism of evolution. I can understand why this point may not be appreciated by the average non-scientist because natural selection is easy to understand at a superficial level. It has been widely promoted in the popular press and the image of "survival of the fittest" is too powerful and too convenient.

    During the first part of this century the incorporation of genetics and population biology into studies of evolution led to a Neo-Darwinian theory of evolution that recognized the importance of mutation and variation within a population. Natural selection then became a process that altered the frequency of genes in a population and this defined evolution. This point of view held sway for many decades but more recently the classic Neo-Darwinian view has been replaced by a new concept which includes several other mechanisms in addition to natural selection. Current ideas on evolution are usually referred to as the Modern Synthesis which is described by Futuyma;


    "The major tenets of the evolutionary synthesis, then, were that populations contain genetic variation that arises by random (ie. not adaptively directed) mutation and recombination; that populations evolve by changes in gene frequency brought about by random genetic drift, gene flow, and especially natural selection; that most adaptive genetic variants have individually slight phenotypic effects so that phenotypic changes are gradual (although some alleles with discrete effects may be advantageous, as in certain color polymorphisms); that diversification comes about by speciation, which normally entails the gradual evolution of reproductive isolation among populations; and that these processes, continued for sufficiently long, give rise to changes of such great magnitude as to warrant the designation of higher taxonomic levels (genera, families, and so forth)."
    - Futuyma, D.J. in Evolutionary Biology, Sinauer Associates, 1986; p.12

    This description would be incomprehensible to Darwin since he was unaware of genes and genetic drift. The modern theory of the mechanism of evolution differs from Darwinism in three important respects:

    #1 It recognizes several mechanisms of evolution in addition to natural selection. One of these, random genetic drift, may be as important as natural selection.
    #2 It recognizes that characteristics are inherited as discrete entities called genes. Variation within a population is due to the presence of multiple alleles of a gene.
    #3 It postulates that speciation is (usually) due to the gradual accumulation of small genetic changes. This is equivalent to saying that macroevolution is simply a lot of microevolution.


    In other words, the Modern Synthesis is a theory about how evolution works at the level of genes, phenotypes, and populations whereas Darwinism was concerned mainly with organisms, speciation and individuals. This is a major paradigm shift and those who fail to appreciate it find themselves out of step with the thinking of evolutionary biologists. Many instances of such confusion can be seen here in the newsgroups, in the popular press, and in the writings of anti-evolutionists.
    The major controversy among evolutionists today concerns the validity of point #3 (above). The are many who believe that the fossil record at any one site does not show gradual change but instead long periods of stasis followed by rapid speciation. This model is referred to as Punctuated Equilibrium and it is widely accepted as true, at least in some cases. The debate is over the relative contributions of gradual versus punctuated change, the average size of the punctuations, and the mechanism. To a large extent the debate is over the use of terms and definitions, not over fundamentals. No new mechanisms of evolution are needed to explain the model.

    Some scientists continue to refer to modern thought in evolution as Neo-Darwinian. In some cases these scientists do not understand that the field has changed but in other cases they are referring to what I have called the Modern Synthesis, only they have retained the old name.
    Last edited by OldMercsRule; 04-17-2010 at 12:04 AM.

  8. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete311 View Post
    Any time I am wrong I will admit it. If the facts stop making sense and experts start to move in a different direction, so will I. You however will not, because you are deluded.

    "When you subscribe to a religion, you substitute focused, independent thought for nebulous group-think. Instead of learning to discern truth on your own, you’re told what to believe. This doesn’t accelerate your spiritual growth; on the contrary it puts the brakes on your continued conscious development. "
    http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...ve-a-religion/
    N' you look down yer nose at me while calling a theory in flux a "fact".

    Maybe you should consider the log in yer own eye before ya show me the speck in mine, eh: Einstein?

  9. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete311 View Post
    Any time I am wrong I will admit it. If the facts stop making sense and experts start to move in a different direction, so will I. You however will not, because you are deluded.

    "When you subscribe to a religion, you substitute focused, independent thought for nebulous group-think. Instead of learning to discern truth on your own, you’re told what to believe. This doesn’t accelerate your spiritual growth; on the contrary it puts the brakes on your continued conscious development. "
    http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...ve-a-religion/
    lol....contrast this
    "When you subscribe to a religion, you substitute focused, independent thought for nebulous group-think. Instead of learning to discern truth on your own, you’re told what to believe."

    with this
    "If the facts stop making sense and experts start to move in a different direction, so will I."

    and tell me if you see any parallels......
    ...full immersion.....

  10. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldMercsRule View Post
    Yer fellow true believer: Pete gave this 17 year old cite, to try to show how yer precious religion has morphed from Darwin's kindergarten kool aid that you tend ta cornsume. There are other more recent cites if you care to go back and review my posts in this thread.

    You need to hit the books yerself as I already know yer religion is under serious stress and don't need to do yer homewerk for ya as yer obviously not readin' the cites in me posts.

    My point still stands: Evolution is a very old theory that fails to properly fit observations. It is not irrufutably proven nor is it a "fact".


    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/modern-synthesis.html

    The Modern Synthesis of Genetics and Evolution
    Copyright © 1993-1997 by Laurence Moran
    [Last Update: January 22, 1993]



    Many people do not understand current ideas about evolution. The following is a brief summary of the modern consensus among evolutionary biologists.

    The idea that life on Earth has evolved was widely discussed in Europe in the late 1700's and the early part of the last century. In 1859 Charles Darwin supplied a mechanism, namely natural selection, that could explain how evolution occurs. Darwin's theory of natural selection helped to convince most people that life has evolved and this point has not been seriously challenged in the past one hundred and thirty years.

    It is important to note that Darwin's book "The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection" did two things. It summarized all of the evidence in favor of the idea that all organisms have descended with modification from a common ancestor, and thus built a strong case for evolution. In addition Darwin advocated natural selection as a mechanism of evolution. Biologists no longer question whether evolution has occurred or is occurring. That part of Darwin's book is now considered to be so overwhelmingly demonstrated that is is often referred to as the FACT of evolution. However, the MECHANISM of evolution is still debated.

    We have learned much since Darwin's time and it is no longer appropriate to claim that evolutionary biologists believe that Darwin's theory of Natural Selection is the best theory of the mechanism of evolution. I can understand why this point may not be appreciated by the average non-scientist because natural selection is easy to understand at a superficial level. It has been widely promoted in the popular press and the image of "survival of the fittest" is too powerful and too convenient.

    During the first part of this century the incorporation of genetics and population biology into studies of evolution led to a Neo-Darwinian theory of evolution that recognized the importance of mutation and variation within a population. Natural selection then became a process that altered the frequency of genes in a population and this defined evolution. This point of view held sway for many decades but more recently the classic Neo-Darwinian view has been replaced by a new concept which includes several other mechanisms in addition to natural selection. Current ideas on evolution are usually referred to as the Modern Synthesis which is described by Futuyma;


    "The major tenets of the evolutionary synthesis, then, were that populations contain genetic variation that arises by random (ie. not adaptively directed) mutation and recombination; that populations evolve by changes in gene frequency brought about by random genetic drift, gene flow, and especially natural selection; that most adaptive genetic variants have individually slight phenotypic effects so that phenotypic changes are gradual (although some alleles with discrete effects may be advantageous, as in certain color polymorphisms); that diversification comes about by speciation, which normally entails the gradual evolution of reproductive isolation among populations; and that these processes, continued for sufficiently long, give rise to changes of such great magnitude as to warrant the designation of higher taxonomic levels (genera, families, and so forth)."
    - Futuyma, D.J. in Evolutionary Biology, Sinauer Associates, 1986; p.12

    This description would be incomprehensible to Darwin since he was unaware of genes and genetic drift. The modern theory of the mechanism of evolution differs from Darwinism in three important respects:

    #1 It recognizes several mechanisms of evolution in addition to natural selection. One of these, random genetic drift, may be as important as natural selection.
    #2 It recognizes that characteristics are inherited as discrete entities called genes. Variation within a population is due to the presence of multiple alleles of a gene.
    #3 It postulates that speciation is (usually) due to the gradual accumulation of small genetic changes. This is equivalent to saying that macroevolution is simply a lot of microevolution.


    In other words, the Modern Synthesis is a theory about how evolution works at the level of genes, phenotypes, and populations whereas Darwinism was concerned mainly with organisms, speciation and individuals. This is a major paradigm shift and those who fail to appreciate it find themselves out of step with the thinking of evolutionary biologists. Many instances of such confusion can be seen here in the newsgroups, in the popular press, and in the writings of anti-evolutionists.
    The major controversy among evolutionists today concerns the validity of point #3 (above). The are many who believe that the fossil record at any one site does not show gradual change but instead long periods of stasis followed by rapid speciation. This model is referred to as Punctuated Equilibrium and it is widely accepted as true, at least in some cases. The debate is over the relative contributions of gradual versus punctuated change, the average size of the punctuations, and the mechanism. To a large extent the debate is over the use of terms and definitions, not over fundamentals. No new mechanisms of evolution are needed to explain the model.

    Some scientists continue to refer to modern thought in evolution as Neo-Darwinian. In some cases these scientists do not understand that the field has changed but in other cases they are referring to what I have called the Modern Synthesis, only they have retained the old name.
    This link clearly states that natural selection is still a recognized mechanism of evolution. Do you have a link that supports your claim or were you spouting bullshit?

  11. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missileman View Post
    This link clearly states that natural selection is still a recognized mechanism of evolution. Do you have a link that supports your claim or were you spouting bullshit?
    I linked in prior posts hit the books.

  12. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldMercsRule View Post
    I linked in prior posts hit the books.
    I'll take this as an admission you were just spouting unsubstantiated bullshit.

  13. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missileman View Post
    I'll take this as an admission you were just spouting unsubstantiated bullshit.

    Nope yer a lazy researcher and don't read cites in my posts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldMercsRule View Post



    Nope yer a lazy researcher and don't read cites in my posts.
    NONE of your posts contain a link to science disproving natural selection because it hasn't happened. Not that a liar such as yourself will admit it.

  15. #270
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    oops not ready yet

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