Why Can't the Pro-Abortionists be Honest?

[Missileman]

And I mention this before "functional" is in the eye of the beholder. who draws the line forthat one?

I don't think it would be too dificult to make a list of normal brain functions...one that we could agree on even.

But to directly answer your question. That particular clump of cells in that moment is in the process of growing a brain, heart, arms, legs all of the parts that make a human. It is at that moment a living growing human being.

I disagree, and I think with a couple of questions, you will see where I'm coming from. Assuming with the removal of whatever part we're talking about, what's left functions normally: If you start with a complete human being, and remove his or her head, is everything left from the neck down still a human being? What if you remove everything from the neck down, is the head still a human being? What if you remove everything except a pair of skin cells? What if you take away everything but an eye?

[LuvRPgrl]

I don't think it would be too dificult to make a list of normal brain functions...one that we could agree on even.




I disagree, and I think with a couple of questions, you will see where I'm coming from. Assuming with the removal of whatever part we're talking about, what's left functions normally: If you start with a complete human being, and remove his or her head, is everything left from the neck down still a human being? What if you remove everything from the neck down, is the head still a human being? What if you remove everything except a pair of skin cells? What if you take away everything but an eye?

That is irrelevant, especially if you are talking about a "brain". A brain, and other things necessary to carry out all the functions needed by a fully grown human is different than those for a one month old baby, or the two week old fetus.
A one month old baby can live fine on only mothers milk, not a full grown man. (altough I mind not mind trying)

[LuvRPgrl]

And I mention this before "functional" is in the eye of the beholder. who draws the line forthat one?

But to directly answer your question. That particular clump of cells in that moment is in the process of growing a brain, heart, arms, legs all of the parts that make a human. It is at that moment a living growing human being.
The only thing that will stop it's growth is some process of nature or a another human being killing it.

Hey Rev, you might like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_fertilization

Human fertilization is the union of a human egg and sperm, usually occurring in the ampulla of the uterine tube. The result of this union is the production of a new individual of the human species (homo sapiens), complete with a unique set of the 23 pairs of chromosomes that genetically specify a human organism, the sperm and the egg each providing 23, for a total of 46 chromosomes. It is also the initiation of prenatal development. Scientists discovered the dynamics of human fertilization in the nineteenth century.[1]

As the title of the thread states, why cant they be honest. If anti life, pro abortionists were really after truth, it would be so obvious that at the moment of conception a virtual miracle has occured. Everything, EVERYTHING necessary for a human being to exist is there.
The only denial will come from those who DONT WANT to believe it, for varioius reasons, and they will squirm around coming up with all kinds of things to deny it.

The number of things MM brought up was considerable. First he mentioned brain, then first trimester, then he jumped to fetal heartbeat, Frankly, Im not sure what he believes, but I do know that JT has it right, these guys cant be honest with themselves.

[LuvRPgrl]

Just for grins, let's give this a try. I say it takes more than a clump of cells to comprise a human being. For instance, IMO, you can't have a human being without a functional brain. Agree or disagree, and why?

How about this for grins.

It is a clump of cells?? Ok, it is living, so what species does it belong to?
It has to be some species if its alive.

IM GOING TO ANSWER THIS FOR YOU, CUZ WHENEVER CONFRONTED WITH A QUESTION THAT , IF ANSWERED HONESTLY, WILL EXPOSE THE PRO ABORTIONISTS ARGUEMENT AS FALSE, THEN THE PRO ABORTIONISTS WONT ANSWER IT DIRECTLY.

ANSWER,: human, it is a human organism, there is no such thing as a "partial" human organism. It either is, or it isnt', as they say, there is no such thing as "kiinda" being pregnant,
so therefore, there is no such thing as being "kinda" human.

It either is or it isnt. There is nothing in nature that is "kiinda" any species.

Is it alilve? OF course, its growing.

Is it an individual, ? (not just part of the mom_) that one is soooo three weeks ago. Of course its an individual. It has a different DNA than the mother, so it cant be a part of her, plus it has part of the male in it, so what part of a man, other than sperm on an egg, can I put in a womans body, anywhere, and it will be a part of its growth? NONE.

Its an individual organism, human, growing and living.

It does have some sort of a
"brain" in that something inside of it is dictating what it is to do. After all, at some point, some of the cells have to start changing and becoming individual parts of the body. How do they "know" to do this? There is some form of intelligence telling it. Its not the mom.

It may not be the brain you want to define, cuz then you can claim it isnt fully human.
The extent of complexity of a "brain" needed to keep a one day old fetus alive and growing is not anything near the complexity required of one to keep a fully grown human alive. Hence, its "brain" doesnt need to meet the standard of a definition of a full grown brain.

Lastly, its an organism, if its not fully human, then the part that isnt human, what is it? Is it part dog, cat? No, its fully human.

[LuvRPgrl]

As to the when life begins questions, most secularist don't want to touch (or disregard) the "soul" issue.
But when it comes to the scientific and cultural issue most folks want to haggle.
In the haggling most honest people will say, based on their viewpoint there's room for debate.
my question is at that point is,

Why not give the fetus the benefit of the doubt?

If there is ANY question as to when life begins why not ASSUME that it could start at conception?
And Give them the full protection of the law.

It would seem to me the scientifically and "modern western culturally", the best and right thing to do.

The following is very interesting. It comes from a site that promotes abortion and morning after pill, so they cant be accused of being "pro life biased".

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fetu.htm



13 or 14 days after conception: A "primitive streak" appears. It will later develop into the fetus' central nervous system. This is the point at which spontaneous division of the blastocyst -- an event that sometimes generates identical twins -- is not longer possible. The pre-embryo is now referred to as an embryo. It is a very small cluster of undifferentiated cells at this stage of development.


3 weeks: The embryo is now about 1/12" long, the size of a pencil point. It most closely resembles a worm - long and thin and with a segmented end. Its heart begins to beat about 18 to 21 days after conception.

THIS information provides us with a MINIMUM starting point regardless of your defintion orf life. It provides the four criteria, and at minimum establishes a time,occurance that establishes a brain and heart beat. This minimum standard has continually been moving closer and closer to conecption,

This threshold, when more research is accomplished, most certainly will continue to move the MINIMUM threshold closer to the point of conception.

[Missileman]

ANSWER,: human, it is a human organism, there is no such thing as a "partial" human organism. It either is, or it isnt', as they say, there is no such thing as "kiinda" being pregnant,
so therefore, there is no such thing as being "kinda" human.

A totally brain dead body on life support is a human organism, it is no longer a human being. A human skin cell is human life, it is not a human being.

I noticed you didn't actually provide answers to the questions I posed. We both know why.

[Missileman]

The following is very interesting. It comes from a site that promotes abortion and morning after pill, so they cant be accused of being "pro life biased".

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fetu.htm



13 or 14 days after conception: A "primitive streak" appears. It will later develop into the fetus' central nervous system. This is the point at which spontaneous division of the blastocyst -- an event that sometimes generates identical twins -- is not longer possible. The pre-embryo is now referred to as an embryo. It is a very small cluster of undifferentiated cells at this stage of development.


3 weeks: The embryo is now about 1/12" long, the size of a pencil point. It most closely resembles a worm - long and thin and with a segmented end. Its heart begins to beat about 18 to 21 days after conception.

THIS information provides us with a MINIMUM starting point regardless of your defintion orf life. It provides the four criteria, and at minimum establishes a time,occurance that establishes a brain and heart beat. This minimum standard has continually been moving closer and closer to conecption,

This threshold, when more research is accomplished, most certainly will continue to move the MINIMUM threshold closer to the point of conception.

A minimum starting point of what?

[Missileman]

It does have some sort of a
"brain" in that something inside of it is dictating what it is to do. After all, at some point, some of the cells have to start changing and becoming individual parts of the body. How do they "know" to do this? There is some form of intelligence telling it. Its not the mom.

ROFL...you were right...you'll never get a Nobel prize in science.

[LuvRPgrl]

A totally brain dead body on life support is a human organism, it is no longer a human being. A human skin cell is human life, it is not a human being.

I noticed you didn't actually provide answers to the questions I posed. We both know why.

YOU know NOTHING about my motives.

Human = human being = human life. Check the science online dictionary.
I dont think you can have a totally, TOTALLY brain dead person survive on life support.

A human skin cell is NOT human life. It is not a seperate organism. It is PART of a human life, that, and only that. You can call it human life if you want, but you are only deluding yourself, hence the title of the thread.

[Missileman]

YOU know NOTHING about my motives.

Human = human being = human life. Check the science online dictionary.
I dont think you can have a totally, TOTALLY brain dead person survive on life support.

A human skin cell is NOT human life. It is not a seperate organism. It is PART of a human life, that, and only that. You can call it human life if you want, but you are only deluding yourself, hence the title of the thread.

Hmmm...a human skin cell is alive and it's human. If it's not human life, what is it...canine?

[LuvRPgrl]

Hmmm...a human skin cell is alive and it's human. If it's not human life, what is it...canine?

I already told you, its part of a human life. Not human life in and of itself.

The fetus is human life, it is NOT a part of someone elses life/body. Hence, it is its own life, it is the complete organism, a skin cell isnt

[Missileman]

I already told you, its part of a human life. Not human life in and of itself.

The fetus is human life, it is NOT a part of someone elses life/body. Hence, it is its own life, it is the complete organism, a skin cell isnt

There is a difference between human life and A human life. The same is true between human life and a human being.

A fetus is NOT a complete organism, it is a developing one.

[Missileman]

I dont think you can have a totally, TOTALLY brain dead person survive on life support.

It happens every day in hospitals around the world. The termination of the effort is called "pulling the plug".

[PostmodernProphet]

Just for grins, let's give this a try. I say it takes more than a clump of cells to comprise a human being. For instance, IMO, you can't have a human being without a functional brain. Agree or disagree, and why?

which functions........a rather wide scope, which could result in a determination that no Democrat is a human being......

[LuvRPgrl]

There is a difference between human life and A human life. The same is true between human life and a human being.

A fetus is NOT a complete organism, it is a developing one.

wrong, wrong and wrong again. Dont you get tired of it""

Human life refers to the community of humans, or a human life, which is the same as a human beings life, since dogs cant have human life, it requires a human being to have human life in it.

a fetus is a human being, proved over and over.