Do you support torture?

[fj1200]

Not sure why you keep it up. His mind is closed, and he believes the topic is black or white only. All he's presented are cherry picked opinions to support a one-sided argument.

The moral issue that we should be a country that doesn't engage in barbaric actions and be a beacon to the rest of the world? Yeah I guess that's one sided.

[Gunny]

The moral issue that we should be a country that doesn't engage in barbaric actions and be a beacon to the rest of the world? Yeah I guess that's one sided.

Really. Just I asked rev and got no answer, I'll ask you a like question:

How do you define "barbaric actions"? That starts at beating up your little brother and taking his toy and moves from there.

We won't have to worry about any morals if we aren't free to have them. You won't be free to have them if you are not willing to use whatever means necessary to defeat those that would take them away.

As long as there are barbaric aggressors, the use of barbaric force to combat them will be justified.

[jimnyc]

The moral issue that we should be a country that doesn't engage in barbaric actions and be a beacon to the rest of the world? Yeah I guess that's one sided.

I'm sure the rest of the world will understand that we used enhanced interrogation techniques on terrorists that can be counted on one hand - and according to the CIA, part of that information lead to the capture/killing of the most wanted man ever on our planet.

On a side note - why is it that so many jump up and down that the US shouldn't be the one who consistently helps other countries or engages other countries, that we should worry about our own country. But then in the next sentence we should worry about what the rest of the world thinks of us?

[jimnyc]

Really. Just I asked rev and got no answer, I'll ask you a like question:

How do you define "barbaric actions"? That starts at beating up your little brother and taking his toy and moves from there.

We won't have to worry about any morals if we aren't free to have them. You won't be free to have them if you are not willing to use whatever means necessary to defeat those that would take them away.

As long as there are barbaric aggressors, the use of barbaric force to combat them will be justified.

I see nothing "barbaric" about using a technique that scares a prisoner and makes him THINK he is drowning. Then again, I don't hug trees and want to handcuff our military either.

[Gunny]

I see nothing "barbaric" about using a technique that scares a prisoner and makes him THINK he is drowning. Then again, I don't hug trees and want to handcuff our military either.

Agreed. My point was to do the same to him as I did rev .... they use subjective terminology as absolutes.

Then there is the quandary of the argument itself. "Barbaric actions"? Where's the condemnation for the transgressors who play by NOBODY's rules? Instead of condemnation by those who aren't protecting themselves nor anyone else for those that ARE doing the protecting?

[jimnyc]

Agreed. My point was to do the same to him as I did rev .... they use subjective terminology as absolutes.

Then there is the quandary of the argument itself. "Barbaric actions"? Where's the condemnation for the transgressors who play by NOBODY's rules? Instead of condemnation by those who aren't protecting themselves nor anyone else for those that ARE doing the protecting?

We are in 1000% agreement. Some here have the audacity to continually condemn our country for taking necessary steps to ensure the safety of our country and our military - and those steps don't involve "barbaric" techniques.

THIS is what we are up against. THIS is what we are trying to prevent. THIS is what our enemy understands. THIS is the treatment OUR soldiers get if interrogated. THIS IS BARBARIC, not waterboarding someone and allowing them to walk away afterwards and have a warm meal and a blanket.

I DEFY you to watch this, Rev. WATCH IT AND UNDERSTAND what we are up against. Do you really think people who can do this will just give up information to us because we ask nicely?

NOBODY should watch the last 30 seconds of this unless you want to be sick - OR if you want to see something TRULY barbaric, not simulated drowning where the suspect walks away unharmed. Some want to condemn our military or intelligence agencies from taking actions to prevent this kind of shit. Because we did it to what, maybe 3-5 terrorists, and gained information that killed Bin Laden?

Daily complaints about our government, intel agencies or military - but this shit gets talked about for a day or 2 and then nobody mentions it anymore.

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[Gunny]

We are in 1000% agreement. Some here have the audacity to continually condemn our country for taking necessary steps to ensure the safety of our country and our military - and those steps don't involve "barbaric" techniques.

THIS is what we are up against. THIS is what we are trying to prevent. THIS is what our enemy understands. THIS is the treatment OUR soldiers get if interrogated. THIS IS BARBARIC, not waterboarding someone and allowing them to walk away afterwards and have a warm meal and a blanket.

I DEFY you to watch this, Rev. WATCH IT AND UNDERSTAND what we are up against. Do you really think people who can do this will just give up information to us because we ask nicely?

NOBODY should watch the last 30 seconds of this unless you want to be sick - OR if you want to see something TRULY barbaric, not simulated drowning where the suspect walks away unharmed. Some want to condemn our military or intelligence agencies from taking actions to prevent this kind of shit. Because we did it to what, maybe 3-5 terrorists, and gained information that killed Bin Laden?

Daily complaints about our government, intel agencies or military - but this shit gets talked about for a day or 2 and then nobody mentions it anymore.

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Sure they mention it again. Been my observation when they get lit into, they just go start another thread, similar title, minus the opposition to their delusional beliefs in some utopian wonderland.

[revelarts]

Gunny I showed you pictures of what torture is. I also said very clearly that waterboarding is torture. And I've pointed out that your definition was correct, except for the Idea that torture is magical sanitized and becomes only Coercion if it's done for a reason.

I give more specfic examples of torture if you like and barbaric activity. But it's funny that Gaffer did say that the images in the photos were torture but you've avoided the question twice now.

Jim,
Waterboarding is not some one THNIKING they are drowing they are drowning.

Navy SERE trainer Nance

While US media reports typically state that waterboarding involves "simulated drowning", Mr Nance explained that "since the lungs are actually filling with water", there is nothing simulated about it. "Waterboarding," he said, "is slow-motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of blackout and expiration. When done right, it is controlled death."

Mr Nance said US troops were trained to withstand waterboarding, watched by a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a backup team. "When performed with even moderate intensity over an extended time on an unsuspecting prisoner – it is torture, without doubt," he added. "Most people cannot stand to watch a high-intensity, kinetic interrogation. One has to overcome basic human decency to endure watching or causing the effects. The brutality would force you into a personal moral dilemma between humanity and hatred. It would leave you to question the meaning of what it is to be an American."

But I'm the one wasting my breath because i've pointed this out before. As well as the fact that its not the way to get intel. What it is good for is false confessions and getting people to do whatever you want. OH, with the side benefit of creating more terrorist.

Jim
As far as not helping others around the world but caring what the world thinks of us. It's more about self respect. WE make the claim and teach our children that the USA has higher moral standards than dictators, despots and oppressive Communist regimes . WE claim to be The Beacon of FREEDOM and Human Rights of the world. Do we keep our own standard? Nope. Not even when it's to our own benefit BUT if we think we MIGHT BE, POSSIBLY COULD BE, ONE DAY threatened then Freedom and Human rights for all people go in the toilet.

[jimnyc]

Jim,
Waterboarding is not some one THNIKING they are drowing they are drowning.

Navy SERE trainer Nance

But I'm the one wasting my breath because i've pointed this out before.

NO, your problem is that you go out and search for what supports your argument instead of searching for the truth. This was discussed previously and IT IS NOT drowning:

http://waterboarding.org/info

Correction: Early drafts of this page indicated that waterboarding included inhaling water into the lungs. The recently declassified Bybee Memo's official procedure is to prevent this.

So, NO DROWNING AS NO WATER ENTERS THE LUNGS - so how is this "barbaric"?

[revelarts]

We didn't understand How the Japanese could use Kamazais, ANd the NAZI's could do all the Hell they did.

But the WW2 interrogators State Explicitly that they DID NOT need to Torture or Enhanced Interrogation to deal with captors.
PERIOD

Torture or Revenge is not an Intel technique.

[jimnyc]

Jim
As far as not helping others around the world but caring what the world thinks of us. It's more about self respect. WE make the claim and teach our children that the USA has higher moral standards than dictators, despots and oppressive Communist regimes . WE claim to be The Beacon of FREEDOM and Human Rights of the world. Do we keep our own standard? Nope. Not even when it's to our own benefit BUT if we think we MIGHT BE, POSSIBLY COULD BE, ONE DAY threatened then Freedom and Human rights for all people go in the toilet.

All this because a handful of terrorists received harsh treatment? LOL

[Gunny]

Gunny I showed you pictures of what torture is. I also said very clearly that waterboarding is torture. And I've pointed out that your definition was correct, except for the Idea that torture is magical sanitized and becomes only Coercion if it's done for a reason.

I give more specfic examples of torture if you like and barbaric activity. But it's funny that Gaffer did say that the images in the photos were torture but you've avoided the question twice now.

Jim,
Waterboarding is not some one THNIKING they are drowing they are drowning.

Navy SERE trainer Nance

But I'm the one wasting my breath because i've pointed this out before. As well as the fact that its not the way to get intel. What it is good for is false confessions and getting people to do whatever you want. OH, with the side benefit of creating more terrorist.

Jim
As far as not helping others around the world but caring what the world thinks of us. It's more about self respect. WE make the claim and teach our children that the USA has higher moral standards than dictators, despots and oppressive Communist regimes . WE claim to be The Beacon of FREEDOM and Human Rights of the world. Do we keep our own standard? Nope. Not even when it's to our own benefit BUT if we think we MIGHT BE, POSSIBLY COULD BE, ONE DAY threatened then Freedom and Human rights for all people go in the toilet.

You haven't pointed out a thing. There's a difference between torture and coercion you refuse to recognize.

Your "examples" are mere opinions of people that have no more experience than I, or other of your detractors on this board do.

Waterboarding for the sake of it is torture. Waterboarding for the sake of extracting specific information that may save even ONE life of a US serviceperson or US citizen is coercion.

Simple as that. SO long as you choose to let others fight for you, you have no right to criticize how they do it. Or get your ass out on the line yourself and we'll see how long your sentamentalism for for a ruthless enemy lasts.

[jimnyc]

But the WW2 interrogators State Explicitly that they DID NOT need to Torture or Enhanced Interrogation to deal with captors.
PERIOD

Revenge is not an Intel technique.

Agreed. But waterboarding or similar to gain information from known terrorists IS - and it's worked. PERIOD.

[Gunny]

We didn't understand How the Japanese could use Kamazais, ANd the NAZI's could do all the Hell they did.

But the WW2 interrogators State Explicitly that they DID NOT need to Torture or Enhanced Interrogation to deal with captors.
PERIOD

Revenge is not an Intel technique.

Sure we understood. Bad example on YOUR part. We understood and we made them pay. You'd just slap them on the hands and say "bad boys".


And I got news for you ... QUIT listen to just opinions that suit your argument. WWI interrogators didn't use "torture" BY THE STANDARDS OF THEIR DAY.

You DO realize both Germans and Japanese were depicted as subhuman by US propaganda? You DO realize that the US NOW, as you are dishonestly trying to make a comparison, PALES in comparison to the attrocities committed by Japan and Germany during WWII?

Get over the brainwashing, dude.

[revelarts]

Simple as that. SO long as you choose to let others fight for you, you have no right to criticize how they do it. Or get your ass out on the line yourself and we'll see how long your sentamentalism for for a ruthless enemy lasts.

You know what Gunny If thats your attitude and you SAY others are Fighting for me. I say their Fired. Don't claim your doing it for my benefit. If you CLAIM to work for the people, we've got EVERY right to Criticize and comment or Praise what goes on and how its done. Come home from the field and take a job doing something else if they don't understand that. Don't risk your life for an ideal you don't really believe in. Or a standard you feel you can't keep.