Muslim Brotherhood wins Presidency

[Drummond]

We have every right to determine their govt if that govt is going to be a threat to us. They are islamists aka nazis. Just because the majority of the people put them in power doesn't mean it was right or should be allowed to stand. I think the egyptian military did the right thing. It's a choice between a military dictatorship of a fundamentalist theocracy. It's a prime example of majority rules not being a good idea.

Yes. In today's world, and considering how terrorist and Islamic links interweave, it would be irresponsible not to take the position that you've every right to do what it takes to pursue your own interests.

Regimes can quickly turn rogue. There are no guarantees that powers such as this new Egyptian Government will behave responsibly on the world stage. In fact, there's a likelihood of the opposite. To just say, or presume, that whatever they say or do 'is right' because it serves the cause of 'freedom' and self-determination, may not be nearly good enough.

With freedom comes responsibility. To think and act responsibly. How likely IS it that the Muslim Brotherhood will do any such thing ? And if they don't, contingency plans are surely needed in case of trouble.

[ConHog]

Do Our Rights Come from the Constitution?

It is commonly believed that the rights of the American people come from the Constitution. Nothing could be further from the truth.
....
It was in 1776, however, with the publication of the Declaration of Independence, that the historical concept of sovereignty got turned upside down. Government wasn't sovereign and supreme, Jefferson declared to the world. Individuals are. And government officials are subordinate and inferior to the citizenry.
The Declaration emphasizes that men have been endowed with certain fundamental and inherent rights that preexist government. In other words, man's rights don't come from the king or from any other government official. Rights such as life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness exist independently of government, not because of government.

It also emphasizes that the reason people call government into existence is to protect the exercise of these rights. That is, in the absence of government, antisocial people such as murderers, rapists, and thieves would make life quite miserable for everyone else. Therefore, government is needed to arrest, prosecute, and punish these types of people.

What happens when government transgresses its rightful duty of protection and becomes more destructive than what would be the case in the absence of government? The Declaration tells us that it is the right of the people to alter or abolish that government and to implement a new government that is designed to protect, not destroy, the exercise of man's natural or God-given rights.
......
So the next time someone refers to your "constitutional rights," remind him that people's rights don't come from the Constitution. And if you really want to stimulate thinking, ask him whether he believes that today the federal government is destructive of the very rights it was designed to protect.

http://www.fff.org/freedom/0699b.asp

That's real nice, but is speaking completely of personal rights, not of the rights of the US government.

[Kathianne]

That's real nice, but is speaking completely of personal rights, not of the rights of the US government.

What 'rights' would you give the government?

[mundame]

Regimes can quickly turn rogue. There are no guarantees that powers such as this new Egyptian Government will behave responsibly on the world stage. In fact, there's a likelihood of the opposite. To just say, or presume, that whatever they say or do 'is right' because it serves the cause of 'freedom' and self-determination, may not be nearly good enough.

I think they'll behave plenty responsibly because we have them bought and paid for. Securing Egypt has been American policy since at least Nixon's presidency, and every administration since. It is working very well, and this attempt to takeover by the Muslim Brotherhood is without doubt one of the biggest challenges yet, but it looks to me as if the Egyptian military has a good handle on the situation.

[revelarts]

Home made bombs? I believe we crossed into other countries to kill leaders of Al Qaeda and such. People who lead an organization who have killed thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands with these so called home made bombs.

As for the rest, while I have no idea what it has to do with the MB, I'll try and answer... We sent chemicals and viruses and such to Iraq and other places back in the day. Apparently they turned around and might have made some of it into weapons. We support an educational system, but not what they might do with it. It's retarded to think we are purposely propping up terrorists while fighting them. Some people have other motives, but we can't stop every little thing that transpires. EXACTLY
And regardless of all of that, (regardless? we are spending billions in counter productive ways we need to stop the idiocy.) to it shouldn't prevent us from remaining vigilant and taking out terrorist extremism when we have the opportunity. If we are sure that's what we are doing, we've got to take the CIC's word for for it. But again the evil terrorist are small potatos in comparison and if we are Funding them though the back door THAT is where we need to focus seems to me.

Unless the army steps in there will be an egyptian taliban govt. The brotherhood created hamas so there's no doubt what will happen there. The US is going to have to stop all aid, as the original agreement with Israel, set up by carter, is about to become null and void.
Al quaeda is also an off shoot of the brotherhood, so basically al quaeda is now running the show in egypt. It's like watching a train wreck in slow motion.
You can bet whatever our govt does it will be wrong.

Um really Israel created Hamas,
How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas Originally Posted by Wall Street Journel
By ANDREW HIGGINS

Moshav Tekuma, Israel
Surveying the wreckage of a neighbor's bungalow hit by a Palestinian rocket, retired Israeli official Avner Cohen traces the missile's trajectory back to an "enormous, stupid mistake" made 30 years ago.
"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel's destruction.
Instead of trying to curb Gaza's Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat's Fatah. Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas. Sheikh Yassin continues to inspire militants today; during the recent war in Gaza, Hamas fighters confronted Israeli troops with "Yassins," primitive rocket-propelled grenades named in honor of the cleric.
View Slideshow ..Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the founder of Hamas....

...A look at Israel's decades-long dealings with Palestinian radicals -- including some little-known attempts to cooperate with the Islamists -- reveals a catalog of unintended and often perilous consequences. Time and again, Israel's efforts to find a pliant Palestinian partner that is both credible with Palestinians and willing to eschew violence, have backfired. Would-be partners have turned into foes or lost the support of their people....

Instead of working with the secularist the U.S. and Israel keep picking these extremist fundamentalist to prop up and train.
Just as we did with AlQuida, during the Russian Afghanistan war. We trained them and gave them weapons, also the crazy fundamentalist Taliban. You'd think these foreign policy makers would get a clue. Is it really just 50 years of horrific foreign policy stupidity? How many times do we make that mistake before we catch on. Our hands are not clean here, we've help create and feed our own monsters in our vain attempts to control the world.

[ConHog]

Um really Israel created Hamas,
How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas Originally Posted by Wall Street Journel
By ANDREW HIGGINS

Moshav Tekuma, Israel
Surveying the wreckage of a neighbor's bungalow hit by a Palestinian rocket, retired Israeli official Avner Cohen traces the missile's trajectory back to an "enormous, stupid mistake" made 30 years ago.
"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel's destruction.
Instead of trying to curb Gaza's Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat's Fatah. Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas. Sheikh Yassin continues to inspire militants today; during the recent war in Gaza, Hamas fighters confronted Israeli troops with "Yassins," primitive rocket-propelled grenades named in honor of the cleric.
View Slideshow ..Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the founder of Hamas....

...A look at Israel's decades-long dealings with Palestinian radicals -- including some little-known attempts to cooperate with the Islamists -- reveals a catalog of unintended and often perilous consequences. Time and again, Israel's efforts to find a pliant Palestinian partner that is both credible with Palestinians and willing to eschew violence, have backfired. Would-be partners have turned into foes or lost the support of their people....

Instead of working with the secularist the U.S. and Israel keep picking these extremist fundamentalist to prop up and train.
Just as we did with AlQuida, during the Russian Afghanistan war. We trained them and gave them weapons, also the crazy fundamentalist Taliban. You'd think these foreign policy makers would get a clue. Is it really just 50 years of horrific foreign policy stupidity? How many times do we make that mistake before we catch on. Our hands are not clean here, we've help create and feed our own monsters in our vain attempts to control the world.

oh please, that's like saying blacks created the KKK. good grief Rev.

[revelarts]

We have every right to determine their govt if that govt is going to be a threat to us. They are islamists aka nazis. Just because the majority of the people put them in power doesn't mean it was right or should be allowed to stand. I think the egyptian military did the right thing. It's a choice between a military dictatorship of a fundamentalist theocracy. It's a prime example of majority rules not being a good idea.

I never said it was in the COTUS. Does that mean we have no right to ensure our future safety?

Egypt is not much without our aid and it's not much with it really.

Epypt has just as much right to determine there gov't as we do. If we don't like it it's our problem. if they decide that they want to threaten us they need to be ready for the hellfire to fall. But until then we've got no real Biz trying to RUN there gov't. i wish we had control of ours.
I know you think the mullahs are gonna get us but any plan to RUN them by hook or crook just feeds the animosity. the same animosity that fueled the Iranian revolution. And you know revolution took place in the 70's and somehow we are still here, even though the mullahs are in control.


Concerning the new Egyptian leadership, the stuff they are saying is REAL bad.
I don't like it at all. However rather than try run, to coup counter coup, a crazy half thought, cross my mind (never be done though)
The fact that the Egyptian military is bought and paid for by U.S. dollars and the U.S. trained military has control of the the equipment could work to our advantage in this sense. A hard policy where we say our deals for arms etc were contingent on our agreements with the former regime and they don't transfer. And seeing the threat to our allies We demand all equipment back , We say this after we get the generals to start packing it all up on planes. Basically we disarm the country. It's Our stuff. a good lawyer could make the justification stick based on our "loans" "grants" etc.
the Egyptian economies a mess. They don't have cash for weapons. I don't think anyone else would be interested in arming them. And we are the Biggest world arms dealer anyway. Our own Millitary industrial complex would be the biggest opponent to this .

But Whatever the case their military store needs need to be depleted, I think it is something we can legitimately lay claim to, defang them and let them bark at Israel. Give the revolution time and hope that like the Irainas they get fed up with Shria and a lot of that mess dies on the vine. Egypt is not a threat to Us yet. Israel is another story but they are not defenseless and have defeated Egypt before.

Another version of the above idea would be to have our bought and paid for Egyptian military allow us tech access to instal controls, bugs, taps ,trackers, tags etc on every piece of high and low tech military equipment and in every control center. Unlike alquida Egypt's large military could be effectivly tracked and every move predicted, making military attacks impotent.

let the gov't do what it wants, but if they plan on attacking they'll have to learn to make that work for them.

[revelarts]

oh please, that's like saying blacks created the KKK. good grief Rev.

So the wall street journal is Lying and the Israeli commander who admits it is making it up.

Open your Eyes man. Israel found a weed and helps it grow into a strong tree.
that's the reality. Strange as it may seem.
Lets work with the reality fellas and not the myths. or how we want to think the world works Con.

[ConHog]

So the wall street journal is Lying and the Israeli commander who admits it is making it up.

Open your Eyes man. Israel found a weed and helps it grow into a strong tree.
that's the reality. Strange as it may seem.
Lets work with the reality fellas and not the myths. or what we want to think the world works Con.

no now, I didn't say that Hamas didn't spring up because of some of Israel's actions. I'm saying that Hamas is responsible for Hamas.

[revelarts]

no now, I didn't say that Hamas didn't spring up because of some of Israel's actions. I'm saying that Hamas is responsible for Hamas.

I was pointing out a mistake/incomplete statment Gaffer made in saying that Hamas was created by the Brotherhood. Did the Brotherhood join/co-op Hamas after Israel set it rolling it sure.

And my larger point is that the U.s and Israel have made it a habit to create Islamic fundamentalist terrorist groups.

Israel has to take some responsibility for Hamas and the U.S. gov't has to take some responsibility for Alqudia and we need to STOP making the same stupid moves.

[ConHog]

I was pointing out a mistake/incomplete statment Gaffer made in saying that Hamas was created by the Brotherhood. Did the Brotherhood join/co-op Hamas after Israel set it rolling it sure.

And my larger point is that the U.s and Israel have made it a habit to create Islamic fundamentalist terrorist groups.

Israel has to take some responsibility for Hamas and the U.S. gov't has to take some responsibility for Alqudia and we need to STOP making the same stupid moves.

Believe it or not, I'm in agreement with you RE: Egypt. We need to let them decide their own fate. As long as they don't attack us.

[Gaffer]

Egypt is not much without our aid and it's not much with it really.

Epypt has just as much right to determine there gov't as we do. If we don't like it it's our problem. if they decide that they want to threaten us they need to be ready for the hellfire to fall. But until then we've got no real Biz trying to RUN there gov't. i wish we had control of ours.
I know you think the mullahs are gonna get us but any plan to RUN them by hook or crook just feeds the animosity. the same animosity that fueled the Iranian revolution. And you know revolution took place in the 70's and somehow we are still here, even though the mullahs are in control.


Concerning the new Egyptian leadership, the stuff they are saying is REAL bad.
I don't like it at all. However rather than try run, to coup counter coup, a crazy half thought, cross my mind (never be done though)
The fact that the Egyptian military is bought and paid for by U.S. dollars and the U.S. trained military has control of the the equipment could work to our advantage in this sense. A hard policy where we say our deals for arms etc were contingent on our agreements with the former regime and they don't transfer. And seeing the threat to our allies We demand all equipment back , We say this after we get the generals to start packing it all up on planes. Basically we disarm the country. It's Our stuff. a good lawyer could make the justification stick based on our "loans" "grants" etc.
the Egyptian economies a mess. They don't have cash for weapons. I don't think anyone else would be interested in arming them. And we are the Biggest world arms dealer anyway. Our own Millitary industrial complex would be the biggest opponent to this .

But Whatever the case their military store needs need to be depleted, I think it is something we can legitimately lay claim to, defang them and let them bark at Israel. Give the revolution time and hope that like the Irainas they get fed up with Shria and a lot of that mess dies on the vine. Egypt is not a threat to Us yet. Israel is another story but they are not defenseless and have defeated Egypt before.

Another version of the above idea would be to have our bought and paid for Egyptian military allow us tech access to instal controls, bugs, taps ,trackers, tags etc on every piece of high and low tech military equipment and in every control center. Unlike alquida Egypt's large military could be effectivly tracked and every move predicted, making military attacks impotent.

let the gov't do what it wants, but if they plan on attacking they'll have to learn to make that work for them.

What gives you the idea that we control the military equipment in egypt? We don't have military personnel there other than embassy guards. I think we should stop sending military aid and just supply food and medical aid. If they want more aid they get rid of the theocratic bullshit, create a secular govt and hold elections that don't include fundamentalists. islam is the problem in egypt and all of the ME. The "revolution" has already happened and sharia is what the people are calling for. Just like iran. egypt will just be a sunni version of iran. They'll have a mufti instead of a mullah.

[revelarts]

What gives you the idea that we control the military equipment in egypt? We don't have military personnel there other than embassy guards. ....

I don't think we have control just access, I have no inside info, i may be way off.

...President Mubarak and Vice President Omar Suleiman “were trained by the Soviets,” says retired Maj. Gen. Robert Scales, the former commandant of the US Army War College. Yet since then, the Egyptian Army “has gone through this transformation over the past 20 or 25 years. They really are a different army than in Mubarak’s formative years.”

It was the officers who came up through the Egyptian military in subsequent years that were more influenced by the United States. In the early 1980s, Egypt “started sending a great many of their best and brightest to our schools,” Scales notes, adding that many of the Egyptian officers trained at US war colleges are now generals who brought their wives and children with them during their time in America.
Those officers “learn our way of war, which is the important thing, but they also learn our philosophies of civil-military relations and they socialize – which lasts the rest of our lives,” says Scales....
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Militar...e/%28page%29/2

Many eyes are on Lt. Gen. Sami Anan, the Egyptian Army’s chief of staff, ...
While he received training in Russia and France, he has had regular contact with the Pentagon. Egypt and the US have had close military ties since the 1979 Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty – but especially because the US provides $1.3 billion in military aid to Egypt, or about a third of its military budget. In addition, hundreds of Pentagon officials operate in the country.

But Egypt is one of many friendly but authoritarian-run countries that sends officers to the US for various types of education, usually at institutions such as the Army War College or the National Defense University. The officers come under a little-known program called International Military Education and Training (IMET)....
http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/...ptian-officers

...A state department cable in 2009 leaked by Wikileaks last year about the U.S-Egyptian relationship documented a meeting between a U.S. general and Egyptian military leaders. The cable sumarized relationship: "President [Hosni] Mubarak and military leaders view our military assistance program as the cornerstone of our mil-mil relationship and consider the $1.3 billion in annual Foreign Military Financing as ‘untouchable compensation' for making and maintaining peace with Israel."
In another state department memo labeled “secret” the Egyptian military viewed the "The tangible benefits to our mil-mil relationship are clear," it says: "Egypt remains at peace with Israel, and the U.S. military enjoys priority access to the Suez Canal and Egyptian airspace."
The U.S. mil-mil relations with Egypt are not just about paying for new military weapons for the Egyptian army. The U.S military aid to Egypt, moreover, pays mostly for upgrades of existing weapons, training Egyptian military and regular maintenance and spare parts.
This military relationship, in exchange, gives the U.S. government leverage over Egypt that the new Egyptian leaders realize as an indispensible fact of life. Without the American military aid the Egyptian military, given the size of American-made weapons it has, will degrade and fall behind its potential enemies in the region....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...gypt-president
http://palestinechronicle.com/view_a...s.php?id=16646

....I think we should stop sending military aid and just supply food and medical aid. If they want more aid they get rid of the theocratic bullshit, create a secular govt and hold elections that don't include fundamentalists. islam is the problem in egypt and all of the ME. The "revolution" has already happened and sharia is what the people are calling for. Just like iran. egypt will just be a sunni version of iran. They'll have a mufti instead of a mullah.

I'm against foreign aid on principal but food and medical should be weaned off. But military should severed immediately.

Just FYI

WIKILeaks 2009 gov't memo
...11. (SBU) We continue to promote democratic reform in Egypt, including the expansion of political freedom and pluralism, and respect for human rights. Egyptian democracy and human rights efforts, however, are being stymied, and the GoE remains skeptical of our role in democracy promotion, complaining that any efforts to open up will result in empowering the Muslim Brotherhood, which currently holds 86 seats in Egypt's 454-seat parliament. Economic reform is ongoing although Egypt still suffers from widespread poverty affecting 35-40% of the population. Egyptian-U.S. trade has more than doubled in the last four years, reaching almost $9 billion in 2008. The U.S. exports to Egypt about twice as much as it imports. Egyptian banks operate very conservatively and have been spared involvement in risky financial products, but the effects of the global economic crisis on Egypt are beginning to be felt. As the global credit crunch worsens, Egypt remains vulnerable as exports, Suez Canal revenues, tourism, and remittances -- its largest sources of revenue -- are all down and likely to continue to fall....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-e...cuments/199866

[ConHog]

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/...ptian-officers

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...gypt-president
http://palestinechronicle.com/view_a...s.php?id=16646



I'm against foreign aid on principal but food and medical should be weaned off. But military should severed immediately.

Just FYI


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-e...cuments/199866

I'm of the opinion that we should give neither. That is supposedly what the U.N. is for. That may sound cold, but we just don't have the money. I feel sorry for people around me who are hungry or sick, but I'm not going to the bank to borrow money to give to them.

[gabosaurus]

I'm of the opinion that we should give neither. That is supposedly what the U.N. is for. That may sound cold, but we just don't have the money. I feel sorry for people around me who are hungry or sick, but I'm not going to the bank to borrow money to give to them.

We should sever all financial and military ties to every country in the Middle East and Northern Africa. They can all get by without us. That includes every country between Morocco and Turkey. Let them get by and sort things out by their own accord.