the least-skilled demanding MORE money - without earning it

[darin]

I don't think that's going to happen but they won't be happy until they are replaced with a burger flipper machine and the one guy that replaces 3 guys will get the $15. Of course that guy will at least have finished HS and probably community college which will leave the unskilled, once again, way behind.

...which drives the democrat voter base - people who refuse to earn; instead demanding free shit.

[fj1200]

...which drives the democrat voter base - people who refuse to earn; instead demanding free shit.

At some point it's not about refuse to earn, it's about can't earn because the minimum wage has priced them beyond what their skills are worth. But the point that we should be making is what the true problem is rather than just calling them a bunch of lazy idiots who just want "free S*." I think one of those is a better message come election time.

[darin]

At some point it's not about refuse to earn, it's about can't earn because the minimum wage has priced them beyond what their skills are worth. But the point that we should be making is what the true problem is rather than just calling them a bunch of lazy idiots who just want "free S*." I think one of those is a better message come election time.

They people refuse to EARN money. Earning $15 might be having TWO $7.50/hr jobs. Might be working 20 hour days. Who knows.

People refuse to take responsibility for their livelihood - that's what this is about.

[Baba Booey]

Mixed feelings on this issue.

If your skill level is such that a robot can easily replace you, you should feel lucky you're getting 7 bucks an hour. Want a living wage? Acquire a skill and/or an education. Easy as that, forcing the minimum wage well beyond the fair market equilibrium is like trying to force a fart, you're gonna shit your pants sooner or later. (shaddap, Gunny )

On the other hand, the vast minority of people control the vast majority of wealth and power in this country and no matter what any Rushbeck ass kissing institutionalized bucket carrying wingnut says (or is programmed to say), you, me, none of us 99%ers have a snowball's chance in hell of crossing over to the 1%.

So how "pure" is the freemarket really if the largest chunk of the market's wealth is highly concentrated in one specific demographic?

Not too pure, hence anyone who thinks we exist in a freemarket capitalistic society needs to update their meds.

These are union workers and when I think union I think powerful special interest, nepotism and privilege. So fuck these union people who bled Detroit dry like they did the steel industry. How great are unions when they'll watch an industry collapse by sucking the last drop of blood out of it than bend? So screw them.

On the other hand, how arrogant is the City of Detroit? Kind of a tangent point but they're sitting on this huge, valuable art collection worth (based on "loans" offered to them by a large art collecting firm) $3b and it looks like they're going to convince the bankruptcy judge to carve this out of funds available to creditors. This is where people, citizens, taxpayers should take up pitchforks and torches and storm the courthouse. What arrogance. A guy loses his job and he and his family are living out of their car because Detroit reneged on it's pension obligation to him but hey, at least Detroit gets to keep billions in artwork.

Some say a comet will fall from the sky.
Followed by meteor showers and tidal waves.
Followed by fault lines that cannot sit still.
Followed by millions of dumbfounded dipshits.

And some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see Armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will 'cause
I sure could use a vacation from this

STUPID shit, silly shit, stupid shit...

One great big festering neon distraction,
I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.

Learn to swim.

Mom's gonna fix it all soon.
Mom's comin' 'round to put it back the way it ought to
be.

[darin]

Mixed feelings on this issue.
On the other hand, the vast minority of people control the vast majority of wealth and power in this country

You can't honestly use that argument without discussing the 'why?'


Big Businesses GET big largely because the Poor(er) keeping giving them their money. It's a self-inflicted wound on the part of the whining majority; and it's a non-issue to the middle; people like me earning what I make and doing a pretty good job of it.

[fj1200]

So how "pure" is the freemarket really if the largest chunk of the market's wealth is highly concentrated in one specific demographic?

Not too pure, hence anyone who thinks we exist in a freemarket capitalistic society needs to update their meds.

It's not not-free because of wealth concentration, it's not-free in this case because the government has simultaneously created a price floor, a disincentivizing welfare system, and a regulatory environment that is harmful to economic growth.

[aboutime]

http://www.theautomat.net/

[Baba Booey]

It's not not-free because of wealth concentration, it's not-free in this case because the government has simultaneously created a price floor, a disincentivizing welfare system, and a regulatory environment that is harmful to economic growth.

It's not entirely free because of both, and a combination of both.

Wealth influences legislation, that's pretty clear. Markets are closed because of barriers created by wealthy, powerful and politically influential corporatists.

Wealth concentration is certainly a factor that inhibits free-markets, with wealth comes power, with wealth and power comes corruption.

[fj1200]

They people refuse to EARN money. Earning $15 might be having TWO $7.50/hr jobs. Might be working 20 hour days. Who knows.

People refuse to take responsibility for their livelihood - that's what this is about.

No. If that's what you make it about then you lose any credibility; Do you think a 20-year old single mother is refusing to take responsibility? Those people have ZERO control over their lives unless you want them to go underground and I at least applaud them for having a job in the first place. Just telling them to "work more" is pointless if there aren't any jobs in the first place. That's what the MW argument should be about; that increasing the MW kills job opportunities for those who most need it and are most at risk.

I hope they eventually do earn $15, and more, but they should earn it because the demand for labor is greater than the supply and/or because they entered the market to gain experience and maturity.

[darin]

No. If that's what you make it about then you lose any credibility; Do you think a 20-year old single mother is refusing to take responsibility? Those people have ZERO control over their lives unless you want them to go underground and I at least applaud them for having a job in the first place. Just telling them to "work more" is pointless if there aren't any jobs in the first place. That's what the MW argument should be about; that increasing the MW kills job opportunities for those who most need it and are most at risk.

I hope they eventually do earn $15, and more, but they should earn it because the demand for labor is greater than the supply and/or because they entered the market to gain experience and maturity.

Yeah, a 20 year old single mother OR father who takes a non-skill job and then simply protests for more money IS refusing responsibility. Those people have 100% control. They can give the kids up for adoption? They can leave the kids with friends/relatives? They can work TWO jobs until a higher paying job happens for them. There ARE jobs, bro.

Your point about the crux of the argument is a good point; but I think the root of the problem is people's unwllingness to take FULL responsibility for their lives. They DEMAND "help". Demanding Help? It's not HELP at that point.

I'm agry about this today - and that drives my cinicism and stubborness preventing a truly-honest debate from my part. I hope you see that.

[fj1200]

Yeah, a 20 year old single mother OR father who takes a non-skill job and then simply protests for more money IS refusing responsibility. Those people have 100% control. They can give the kids up for adoption? They can leave the kids with friends/relatives? They can work TWO jobs until a higher paying job happens for them. There ARE jobs, bro.

Your point about the crux of the argument is a good point; but I think the root of the problem is people's unwllingness to take FULL responsibility for their lives. They DEMAND "help". Demanding Help? It's not HELP at that point.

I'm agry about this today - and that drives my cinicism and stubborness preventing a truly-honest debate from my part. I hope you see that.

Oh come on. We both know Detroit and you're closer to it than I am. Those people by and large have zero control. There are no jobs and she is probably in a better position than most. The Detroit unemployment rate is 17.7% and going up so where are these wonderful jobs at? Do I think she's wrong and short-sighted? Of course but it's better to explain the problem than call her lazy.

[darin]

Oh come on. We both know Detroit and you're closer to it than I am. Those people by and large have zero control. There are no jobs and she is probably in a better position than most. The Detroit unemployment rate is 17.7% and going up so where are these wonderful jobs at? Do I think she's wrong and short-sighted? Of course but it's better to explain the problem than call her lazy.

Move. If the jobs aren't where I am, I pick up and Move. If I can do it. ANYONE "Can".

Most people WANT a new, higher paying job. Most people are not WILLING to get a new, higher paying job.

This is about the eaches taking theirs and moving camp to where the jobs are. It sucks and its tough. But so what?

[BoogyMan]

It would seem that what we are seeing today is an outcome of the entitlement ideology under which the country is currently operating. We all know that fast food jobs are not $15 per hour jobs and that such labor cost increases are going to be ruinous to that particular industry, but with the justification of "it is only fair" being parroted by our government as a valid reason for the increase it looks like we will likely be pushed off that cliff.

Couple this with the hideously costly Obamacare mandates and the future doesn't appear to hold much positivity for the business climate in the fast food space or any other business environment that modern liberals target for ruin.

[gabosaurus]

Every time I see one of those fast food workers spots, it comes down to one question -- "How is someone supposed to raise a family working at a fast food restaurant?"
I want to scream at them "YOU DON'T! YOU GET A REAL FREAKING JOB!!"

Minimum wage jobs are starter positions. They should be filled by kids working their first jobs, or older adults seeking supplemental incomes. At the lowest, minimum wage employment is for those seeking jobs, as a stop gap measure.
There are tons of people who are genuinely unemployable. Like veterans who have been injured in combat. Or those who have been seriously injured and are unable to function normally. How could the government look them in the eye while paying double their pensions to able bodied adults to flip burgers?

You think illegal immigration is bad now? Double the minimum wage and they will be chartering trains to cross the border.