Page 8 of 8 FirstFirst ... 678
Results 106 to 118 of 118
  1. #106
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Virginia, U.S.A.
    Posts
    14,996
    Thanks (Given)
    4882
    Thanks (Received)
    5015
    Likes (Given)
    3259
    Likes (Received)
    1864
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    4
    Mentioned
    135 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14250995

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    I've yet to see you post a single thing that shows that waterboarding was effective in any way, shape or form. And yet 6 of some of the most recent and highest ranking CIA officials state that it has. Maybe it wasn't a 100% direct link to OBL, but they all say that it saved lives, and thousands of them. Their statements sounded as solid as anything else I've read. But yet you're betting the house on everything you've found and posted and more or less ignoring anything that supports such techniques, simply because you disagree with it. I'm not saying you're pretending, but it sure does seem like you are taking one side and dismissing the other.
    Jim as i mentioned I don't care if it was "effective" it's wrong. But they haven't proven it by a LONG shot.
    compared to the 6 guys you mention i've posted apx 15 30 more that say tortures ineffective. heck it's in USAFM , but you only acknowledge you can't know whos telling the truth but your leaning to the 6 who reflex your partisan view.
    But i'm just being biased?

    U.S. Army Field Manual 34-52 Chapter 1 says:

    "Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear."

    A declassified FBI e-mail dated May 10, 2004,
    regarding interrogation at Guantanamo states "[we] explained to [the Department of Defense], FBI has been successful for many years obtaining confessions via non-confrontational interviewing techniques." (see also this)

    Brigadier General David R. Irvine, retired Army Reserve strategic intelligence officer who taught prisoner interrogation and military law for 18 years with the Sixth Army Intelligence School, says torture doesn't work

    The CIA's own Inspector General wrote that waterboarding was not "efficacious" in producing information

    A former FBI interrogator -- who interrogated Al Qaeda suspects -- says categorically that torture does not help collect intelligence. On the other hand he says that torture actually turns people into terrorists

    A 30-year veteran of CIA’s operations directorate who rose to the most senior managerial ranks, says:

    “The administration’s claims of having ‘saved thousands of Americans’ can be dismissed out of hand because credible evidence has never been offered — not even an authoritative leak of any major terrorist operation interdicted based on information gathered from these interrogations in the past seven years. … It is irresponsible for any administration not to tell a credible story that would convince critics at home and abroad that this torture has served some useful purpose.

    This is not just because the old hands overwhelmingly believe that torture doesn’t work — it doesn’t — but also because they know that torture creates more terrorists and fosters more acts of terror than it could possibly neutralize.”

    The FBI interrogators who actually interviewed some of the 9/11 suspects say torture didn't work

    A former US Air Force interrogator said that information obtained from torture is unreliable, and that torture just creates more terrorists

    The number 2 terrorism expert for the State Department says torture doesn't work, and just creates more terrorists

    A former high-level CIA officer states:

    Many governments that have routinely tortured to obtain information have abandoned the practice when they discovered that other approaches actually worked better for extracting information. Israel prohibited torturing Palestinian terrorist suspects in 1999. Even the German Gestapo stopped torturing French resistance captives when it determined that treating prisoners well actually produced more and better intelligence.

    The Senate Armed Services Committee unanimously found that torture doesn't work.

    A former CIA station chief in Pakistan who served at the agency for three decades doubts that torture saved any lives

    Still don't believe it? These people also say torture doesn't produce usable intelligence:

    Former high-level CIA official Bob Baer said "And torture -- I just don't think it really works ... you don't get the truth. What happens when you torture people is, they figure out what you want to hear and they tell you."

    Rear Admiral (ret.) John Hutson, former Judge Advocate General for the Navy, said "Another objection is that torture doesn't work. All the literature and experts say that if we really want usable information, we should go exactly the opposite way and try to gain the trust and confidence of the prisoners."

    Michael Scheuer, formerly a senior CIA official in the Counter-Terrorism Center, said "I personally think that any information gotten through extreme methods of torture would probably be pretty useless because it would be someone telling you what you wanted to hear."

    Dan Coleman, one of the FBI agents assigned to the 9/11 suspects held at Guantanamo said "Brutalization doesn't work. We know that. "

    Many other professional interrogators say the same thing (see this, this, and this).

    In fact, one of the top interrogators in Iraq got information from a high-level Al Qaeda suspect not through torture, but by giving him cookies.

    And top American World War 2 interrogators got more information using chess or Ping-Pong instead of torture than those who use torture are getting today.

    And the head of Britain's wartime interrogation center in London said:
    “Violence is taboo. Not only does it produce answers to please, but it lowers the standard of information.”

    Indeed, one of the top military interrogators said that torture does not work, that it has resulted in hundreds or thousands of deaths of U.S. soldiers, and that torture by Americans of innocent Iraqis is the main reason that foreign fighters started fighting against Americans in Iraq in the first place (in fact, the experts agree that torture reduces national security).

    And - according to the experts - torture is unnecessary even to prevent "ticking time bombs" from exploding (see this, this and this). Indeed, a top expert says that torture would fail in a real 'ticking time-bomb' situation

    And Dick Cheney's claim that waterboarding Khalid Shaikh Mohammed stopped a terror attack on L.A.? As the Chicago Tribune notes:

    The Bush administration claimed that the waterboarding of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed helped foil a planned 2002 attack on Los Angeles -- forgetting that he wasn't captured until 2003.

    (see this confirmation from the BBC: "Khalid Sheikh Mohammed ... was captured in Pakistan in 2003")....
    Top Interrogation Experts Agree: Torture Doesn't Work → Washingtons Blog
    Those 6 guys may have some info i don't have but I'd have to say with the above and the others i've posted it seems i'd have a sufficient reason to believe that torture is no good Jim.

    will you admit that?
    should i bet on it?
    Last edited by revelarts; 12-12-2014 at 08:56 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  2. #107
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    10,089
    Thanks (Given)
    18723
    Thanks (Received)
    8005
    Likes (Given)
    132
    Likes (Received)
    26
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    0
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    9292012

    Default Alberto Gonzales: Drone Use More Damaging Than Torture

    How true, at least when you water board someone you get useful info from them and they live, Drone strikes just kill them ( and any innocents in the house ) dead and ya get no info, maybe this is what Obama wants ?


    Former U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales believes President Barack Obama's employment of enemy-targeting drones is more damaging to the nation than the CIA's use of "enhanced interrogation" in the grilling of suspected terrorists.

    "It seems to me what's more harmful to this country are the drone attacks," Gonzalez said of the controversial unmanned, remotely piloted aircraft used in military strikes.

    "Waterboarding may hurt our standing in the world community. The way the drone program is operated has equal damage — but even more so [because] when you kill a high-level operative, you lose the opportunity to gather intelligence and that's detrimental to our efforts."
    http://www.newsmax.com/Newsmax-Tv/Al.../12/id/612765/
    Never look down on someone unless you are helping them up

  3. Thanks Kathianne thanked this post
  4. #108
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    23,251
    Thanks (Given)
    7207
    Thanks (Received)
    11746
    Likes (Given)
    1048
    Likes (Received)
    1381
    Piss Off (Given)
    4
    Piss Off (Received)
    0
    Mentioned
    39 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    21475220

    Default

    Obama couldn't keep his promise about shutting down Gitmo. So, he uses Drones to kill. Knowing if the enemy is dead. They have no place to come to where punishment, or waterboarding might take place.

    But Most Importantly. If Obama authorizes the Killing of the Enemy...in any way. He effectively prevents any member of the enemy forces from EXPOSING any of Obama's connections with the Muslim Brotherhood, or other ISIS/ISIL groups whom....Obama has been helping silently, by destroying our nation...one person at a time. And he started with our Military. The CIA, and FBI are following close behind as Obama and Angry Democrats attempt to destroy whatever is left of our Ability to DEFEND this nation.

    It's as plain as the nose on anyone's face. But ignorance, selfishness, and stupidity are working overtime.
    I love to make Liberals Cry, and Whine.
    So, this is for them.
    GOD BLESS AMERICA - IN GOD WE TRUST !

  5. #109
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Virginia, U.S.A.
    Posts
    14,996
    Thanks (Given)
    4882
    Thanks (Received)
    5015
    Likes (Given)
    3259
    Likes (Received)
    1864
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    4
    Mentioned
    135 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14250995

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    How true, at least when you water board someone you get useful info from them and they live, Drone strikes just kill them ( and any innocents in the house ) dead and ya get no info, maybe this is what Obama wants ?
    http://www.newsmax.com/Newsmax-Tv/Al.../12/id/612765/
    Both are bad, drones probably worse.
    hard to say which is more sadistic.
    torturering suspects for exteneted periods or killing them by surprise as they are at a funeral or at home cooking.
    Last edited by revelarts; 12-13-2014 at 08:17 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  6. #110
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    10,089
    Thanks (Given)
    18723
    Thanks (Received)
    8005
    Likes (Given)
    132
    Likes (Received)
    26
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    0
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    9292012

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Both are bad, drones probably worse.
    hard to say which is more sadistic.
    torturering suspects for exteneted periods or killing them by surprise as they are at a funeral or at home cooking.
    What you have to remember Rev is they are home cooking for others many times and although maybe these folks will follow in there footsteps we shouldn't kill them just on a maybe ( so we are killing innocents ) the scum we have in captivity are know terrorist ( notice I didn't say enemies , they aren't a army ) and deserve everything they get. Now they can avoid all that nasty torture, all they have to do is not be a terrorist, seems simple enough to me. I didn't want to live my life in jail so I am not a murder, kind of like 1 + 1 = 2
    Never look down on someone unless you are helping them up

  7. Thanks Drummond thanked this post
  8. #111
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Virginia, U.S.A.
    Posts
    14,996
    Thanks (Given)
    4882
    Thanks (Received)
    5015
    Likes (Given)
    3259
    Likes (Received)
    1864
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    4
    Mentioned
    135 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14250995

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    What you have to remember Rev is they are home cooking for others many times and although maybe these folks will follow in there footsteps we shouldn't kill them just on a maybe ( so we are killing innocents )
    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    the scum we have in captivity are known terrorist...
    the people captured and tortured/abused were not all "known" terrorist , they were often "suspected" terrorist or "accused " terrorist.
    Some with assumed knowledge of xyz or giving "material support" to terrorist which might mean giving a ride, or meals to "suspect" terrorist.
    Some of them were real terrorist but Bush himself ended up releasing about 75% or so of the people at Gitmo whom he at 1st called "the worse of the worse". Some are back at home licking there wounds NOT back in terror orgs.
    and because we abused the ones that were Real terrorist we couldn't convict them because we can't use evidence that's been coerced and we didn't have ANY OTHER solid evidence from the field to make a cases stick!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    ( notice I didn't say enemies , they aren't a army ) and deserve everything they get. Now they can avoid all that nasty torture, all they have to do is not be a terrorist, seems simple enough to me. I didn't want to live my life in jail so I am not a murder, kind of like 1 + 1 = 2
    As i've mentioned before many weren't terrorist, just suspects, wrong place wrong time wrong associates.
    and of course ..as i've mentioned several times... torture and abuse is immoral, it's counter productive and is NOT the best way to get intel from a suspect or even known terrorist.
    there are many terrorist in prison now in the U.S. who were never tortured, who gave tons of intel, and will never be on streets again. the NORMAL system WORKS, no need for any extra fake macho revenge movie BS.
    Last edited by revelarts; 12-14-2014 at 08:39 AM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  9. Thanks Jeff thanked this post
  10. #112
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    In your head
    Posts
    24,660
    Thanks (Given)
    4779
    Thanks (Received)
    5272
    Likes (Given)
    1617
    Likes (Received)
    1430
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    40
    Mentioned
    56 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    9173703

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    Granted, it's a little difficult to view Nazis as human. On balance, though, I'm inclined to see Nazis as human.

    Nazism was a mixture of cult worship of a leader and a poisonous political philosophy. Between these, it's easy to see how sensibilities could've been warped.

    More, though, warped or not, Nazis understood the value of law and order. They were capable of maintaining a cohesive Society.
    Coward. That's exactly how some here have described Islam. You could at least have the courage to assign your warped worldview consistently.

    Cohesive society. Comical.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


  11. #113
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    South Wales, UK
    Posts
    11,895
    Thanks (Given)
    20722
    Thanks (Received)
    8222
    Likes (Given)
    2213
    Likes (Received)
    1128
    Piss Off (Given)
    5
    Piss Off (Received)
    0
    Mentioned
    164 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    19319423

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    Coward. That's exactly how some here have described Islam. You could at least have the courage to assign your warped worldview consistently.
    I will concede a similarity. I will not concede an exact parallel.

    With Islam, the loyalty is more towards the creed itself than the leader of it (.. however much revered, however much Mohammed contributed to it). The Koran, all it says (&/or abrogates) is central to what matters to Muslims.

    One couldn't have said the exact same thing for Mein Kampf. With Nazism, it had a living, despotic ruler at the helm. What he commanded, 'real time', was what counted at any one moment.

    Cohesive society. Comical.
    Why ?
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  12. #114
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    23,251
    Thanks (Given)
    7207
    Thanks (Received)
    11746
    Likes (Given)
    1048
    Likes (Received)
    1381
    Piss Off (Given)
    4
    Piss Off (Received)
    0
    Mentioned
    39 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    21475220

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    Coward. That's exactly how some here have described Islam. You could at least have the courage to assign your warped worldview consistently.

    Cohesive society. Comical.

    Funny stuff fj. The king of WARPED almost everything calling others a coward? You lose.
    I love to make Liberals Cry, and Whine.
    So, this is for them.
    GOD BLESS AMERICA - IN GOD WE TRUST !

  13. Thanks Drummond thanked this post
  14. #115
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    10,089
    Thanks (Given)
    18723
    Thanks (Received)
    8005
    Likes (Given)
    132
    Likes (Received)
    26
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    0
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    9292012

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Agreed


    the people captured and tortured/abused were not all "known" terrorist , they were often "suspected" terrorist or "accused " terrorist.
    Some with assumed knowledge of xyz or giving "material support" to terrorist which might mean giving a ride, or meals to "suspect" terrorist.
    Some of them were real terrorist but Bush himself ended up releasing about 75% or so of the people at Gitmo whom he at 1st called "the worse of the worse". Some are back at home licking there wounds NOT back in terror orgs.
    and because we abused the ones that were Real terrorist we couldn't convict them because we can't use evidence that's been coerced and we didn't have ANY OTHER solid evidence from the field to make a cases stick!


    As i've mentioned before many weren't terrorist, just suspects, wrong place wrong time wrong associates.
    and of course ..as i've mentioned several times... torture and abuse is immoral, it's counter productive and is NOT the best way to get intel from a suspect or even known terrorist.
    there are many terrorist in prison now in the U.S. who were never tortured, who gave tons of intel, and will never be on streets again. the NORMAL system WORKS, no need for any extra fake macho revenge movie BS.
    That is a great response Rev, but it is my belief that if you support terrorist you are just as bad, no they aren't lopping peoples heads off but they are supporting it, these people are not a army they are just a bunch of evil people and any way we can get info from them is OK with me, You do realize what they do to our brothers and sisters when they catch them don't ya, lets see watr boarding or head cutt off, personally I will pick the water boarding all day long.
    Never look down on someone unless you are helping them up

  15. #116
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    In your head
    Posts
    24,660
    Thanks (Given)
    4779
    Thanks (Received)
    5272
    Likes (Given)
    1617
    Likes (Received)
    1430
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    40
    Mentioned
    56 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    9173703

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    I will concede a similarity. I will not concede an exact parallel.

    With Islam, the loyalty is more towards the creed itself than the leader of it (.. however much revered, however much Mohammed contributed to it). The Koran, all it says (&/or abrogates) is central to what matters to Muslims.

    One couldn't have said the exact same thing for Mein Kampf. With Nazism, it had a living, despotic ruler at the helm. What he commanded, 'real time', was what counted at any one moment.
    Coward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    Why ?
    A coward's way out of stating what should be obvious. The Nazis were disgusting creatures with no regard for civilian lives who would kill in the streets or line their victims to be shot or gassed. You should have the guts to call them what your logic demands, them and the Imperialist Japanese; Were the Imperialist Japanese subhuman? I bet the Chinese have the guts to call it like it is.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


  16. #117
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    South Wales, UK
    Posts
    11,895
    Thanks (Given)
    20722
    Thanks (Received)
    8222
    Likes (Given)
    2213
    Likes (Received)
    1128
    Piss Off (Given)
    5
    Piss Off (Received)
    0
    Mentioned
    164 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    19319423

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    Coward.



    A coward's way out of stating what should be obvious. The Nazis were disgusting creatures with no regard for civilian lives who would kill in the streets or line their victims to be shot or gassed. You should have the guts to call them what your logic demands, them and the Imperialist Japanese; Were the Imperialist Japanese subhuman? I bet the Chinese have the guts to call it like it is.
    Part of the answer you deserve to have, has been given already. There's a enormous difference between being made to toe a line, by a living despot wielding real and potent power, versus just choosing to follow a creed shaped by a pervert, dead for centuries, therefore not capable of directly issuing orders !!!

    And another enormous difference - which you're ignoring with some degree of determination ? - is that many of those subject to the whims of a despotic, LIVING, master ... were in that position as being part of a organised social structure allowing them no choice whatever. Compare that to Muslim terrorists who work outside of social structures, whose actions can be defined by their purposeful intention to do DAMAGE to the society in which they're based.

    In one example ... force of circumstances shape conduct. In the other, chosen adherence to a creed shaped by someone dead for centuries.
    Last edited by Drummond; 12-17-2014 at 02:05 PM.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  17. #118
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    In your head
    Posts
    24,660
    Thanks (Given)
    4779
    Thanks (Received)
    5272
    Likes (Given)
    1617
    Likes (Received)
    1430
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    40
    Mentioned
    56 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    9173703

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    Part of the answer you deserve to have, has been given already. There's a enormous difference between being made to toe a line, by a living despot wielding real and potent power, versus just choosing to follow a creed shaped by a pervert, dead for centuries, therefore not capable of directly issuing orders !!!

    And another enormous difference - which you're ignoring with some degree of determination ? - is that many of those subject to the whims of a despotic, LIVING, master ... were in that position as being part of a organised social structure allowing them no choice whatever. Compare that to Muslim terrorists who work outside of social structures, whose actions can be defined by their purposeful intention to do DAMAGE to the society in which they're based.

    In one example ... force of circumstances shape conduct. In the other, chosen adherence to a creed shaped by someone dead for centuries.
    Is that what it takes to have zero intellectual credibility? Plenty of those terrorists are directly made to "toe a line" by despotic "Imams" who work inside of social structures. But you may be right, the Nazis were able to efficiently organize society well enough to attempt to eliminate an entire race of people. Efficient genocide; the sign of advanced subhumanity. I don't ignore that you're a cherry-picking coward in applying your disgusting ideology.

    Do you remember when I had to inform you of British history?

    'They seized three-year-old children and shot them': Darkest atrocities of the Nazis laid bare in the secretly recorded conversations of German prisoners of war

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz3MBb5xj8x
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    Last edited by fj1200; 12-17-2014 at 02:44 PM.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Debate Policy - Political Forums