I take my stand, you?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Do you suggest that we outlaw Islam in America ?

Actually I suggest we face the threat and stop it before it grows too huge to stop. Denying that it exists does nothing but sanction it as a legitimate agenda that is perfectly fine to be advanced. The American citizens must decide how to stop it within the Rule of Law.-Tyr

[Dilloduck]

Actually I suggest we face the threat and stop it before it grows too huge to stop. Denying that it exists does nothing but sanction it as a legitimate agenda that is perfectly fine to be advanced. The American citizens must decide how to stop it within the Rule of Law.-Tyr

Stop Islam within the rule of law ? Good luck.

[Drummond]

Stop Islam within the rule of law ? Good luck.

Not quite sure what you're getting at here, Dilloduck.

Are you saying that the only way to meaningfully combat Islam is lawlessly ?

... and actually, that's a point in itself. Over here in the UK, to even strongly CRITICISE Islam, within earshot of a Muslim and in a public place, can lead to said 'offended' Muslim being empowered to expect our authorities to act against the 'offender'.

Think about that.

[Drummond]

A most interesting thread ! Thanks to Tyr for it .. I've just now read it in greater detail.

From my own experience in the UK, it seems perfectly obvious that Islamists have three distinct ways of operating in order to achieve a form of dominance in a Society.

The first is through terrorism .. and not much needs to be said on that score. 9/11, the UK's '7/7' attack in London, the attack at the Atosha station in Spain .. and many more attacks besides, in various parts of the world. Through murder and mayhem, they hope that through acts of terrorism, the will to fight back can be sapped .. and, I'm sorry to say, this sometimes is successful.

The second, pivotal, means (aided and abetted by the Left) is through social incursion. Immigrants arrive, equipped with their cultural and religious identities, they take root in specific areas, form their own communities, all of which pushes out what was in the area they occupy beforehand. Demands are made, all of which serve the requirements of the invading Islamic culture and traditions. Integration is a non-starter ... always, those communities expect OTHERS to bend to THEM.

The third is through exploitation of indigenous freedoms. Demands are made to insist that concession after concession is made to them. Pressure groups form, and always citing either the race card, or the 'bigotry' card, they insist that anyone opposing them must be doing so through unacceptably antisocial means. This is particularly where the Left comes in ... Left-wingers insist that to speak out against them is evidence of racism or bigotry, and pressure groups invariably win out. Laws are passed, such as 'hatespeech' legislation, making strong criticism actionable in law. But more, the indigenous population becomes conditioned to revile anyone not conforming to these socially-conditioned imperatives.

Terrorism is a very 'blunt instrument' for Muslims to use ... though also a much-favoured one, as we've all seen.

Social incursion is less blunt, dealing in large measure with a form of physical invasion. Areas are occupied and, in essence, 'terraformed' to become Muslim in 'nature'.

Exploitative incursion is the most insidious. Through it, social conditioning is brought to bear, aided, as I've said, by the Left. People are pressured into believing that just THINKING of forms of opposition is wrong .. bigoted, racist, intolerant generally. So, belief-systems grow which always, but ALWAYS, lead to an ongoing process of evolving deference .. to Islam and to those practising it.

Folks, understand .. I am not theorising, just describing an ongoing reality in my own society !! Common throughout all of this is the sheer invasiveness of Islam. Islam, in my experience, has no interest in compromise that doesn't end up in achieving considerable advantage to ITS purposes, and more often than not compromise isn't even a factor AT ALL. No, Islam spreads and dominates .. and that's the point of Islam in a nutshell .. one of DOMINION.

Now .. how is that remotely compatible with the preservation of freedoms ? Answer .. IT ISN'T, not if those 'freedoms' are freedoms to defy Islam.

The conflict of Sharia with Western values is a case in point. In the UK, as a guiding legal principle, UK law should always prevail. If a Sharia directive can be arrived at and no UK law is broken, then 'fair enough' in our system ... BUT ... legally, no Sharia law 'court' can set itself up in defiance against UK law.

Sounds fine, doesn't it ... BUT for the process I've described already. Our laws are the product of values reflected by the population, HOWEVER, if those values change, then we can expect our laws to reflect that. Hatespeech legislation is a case in point. So .. if our values bend over time, if in the name of 'tolerance' we find we 'want' to accept other values and defer to them (led by the nose into this by Lefties ..) .. then the law, in the fullness of time, can undergo a form of erosion, where other laws supersede them.

As a consequence of ALL this, it's evident that we've been seen in the UK to be fair game for incursion. We get remarkably little incidence of terrorism here, I think because the 'sneakier' methods work here so very well !! So, goodbye churches, and hello, monolithic Mosque structures. And be careful what you say !!!!

But, America has an advantage we fail to have. You have a Constitution which can act as a barrier to certain incursions, it seems to me. So, the question for me is, just how bulletproof does this make America by comparison ?

I've heard that Obama is known for acting unconstitutionally when it suits him to .. surely a dangerous precedent. Should your society allow it ?

Does Obama cite reasonings to justify himself, reasonings which persuade others to adopt societal values which can 'catch on' and seem reasonable ? Folks, I'm somewhat out of my depth in trying to judge this either way, but what I'm saying is, IF this is happening, the dangers inherent in that process are grave.

So, surely, Americans must be prepared to fight if needs be, for what is theirs by right .. by birthright. Tyr's spirit is commendable, but perhaps more importantly, is INSIGHTFUL ... because you ARE in a war against those utterly determined to overthrow your values. They'll use whatever methodology works, be it the gun or bomb, acts of savagery, or of deployed propaganda crafted to fight your very thought processes and change them to THEIR preferences.

Therein, if they succeed, lies the road to the death of freedom.

DO YOU WANT THAT ? YES OR NO ? Because if 'no', then my suggestion is that you take the utmost notice of what Tyr had to tell you. And .. if that isn't enough for you, then cast your eyes and ears eastwards, to learn what's happening on my side of the Pond. To see what COULD happen .. if you allow it to.

[Drummond]

I looked for a link like this one as evidence of the 'non-peacefulness' of Islam, since there are those on this forum who insist that Islam is entirely peaceful, and no basis for terrorism !!

Well, my link shows the opposite .. violence is clearly encouraged as a means to an end in Islam. More, it's actually mandated .. specifically from Koranic imperatives recorded as such, as central to what it is.

And here's another point .. links such as the one I'm posting here show just how uncompromisingly Islam is focused on seeing to it that it predominates - how intolerant it is of anything outside of it.

So to the link ...

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Qur%27an

• Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war. Qur’an:9:5
  
• The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed. Qur’an:9:112
  
• Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission. Qur’an:9:29
  
• Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah. Qur’an:8:39
  
• So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world). Qur’an:8:39
  
• Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them. Qur’an:9:14
  
• Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place. Qur’an:9:38
  
• Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you. Qur’an:9:123
  
• The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah’s Cause. Qur’an:9:88
  
• O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding. Qur’an:8:65
  
• The revelation of the scripture is from Allah, The Mighty, The Wise. Qur’an:45:2
  
• And He has set firm mountains in the earth so that it would not shake with you. Qur’an:16:15
  
• Have you not seen how God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them into a stack, and then you see the rain come out of it. Qur’an: 24:43

Quran as political charter

The Quran is a political document used by many Islamic nations as a constitution; Libya's constitution (Article 2 of the one adopted in 1977), Saudi Arabia's Basic Law, Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, etc. make this clear. Ergo, I add [[Category:Politics]] to this page.--Inesculent 11:18, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[Dilloduck]

I looked for a link like this one as evidence of the 'non-peacefulness' of Islam, since there are those on this forum who insist that Islam is entirely peaceful, and no basis for terrorism !!

Well, my link shows the opposite .. violence is clearly encouraged as a means to an end in Islam. More, it's actually mandated .. specifically from Koranic imperatives recorded as such, as central to what it is.

And here's another point .. links such as the one I'm posting here show just how uncompromisingly Islam is focused on seeing to it that it predominates - how intolerant it is of anything outside of it.

So to the link ...

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Qur%27an

We've been through all this with people who cherry pick Bible verses to prove how violent the Bible is.

[Drummond]

We've been through all this with people who cherry pick Bible verses to prove how violent the Bible is.

But the quotes are unequivocal. They're not exactly mistakeable for anything else other than proof of a thoroughly aggressive, actually violent religion that'll stop at nothing to predominate !!

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

We've been through all this with people who cherry pick Bible verses to prove how violent the Bible is.

Truly a faulty comparison because the bible has a New Testament that teaches violence is not the way. Christians are clearly taught that violence is not the way. Islam has no such reformation. Islam teaches violence is a method commanded by Allah. You have seen the verses ,Drummond and others have posted them often enough. Why do you continue to ignore such clear verses sanctining violence from the Koran?-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

A most interesting thread ! Thanks to Tyr for it .. I've just now read it in greater detail.

From my own experience in the UK, it seems perfectly obvious that Islamists have three distinct ways of operating in order to achieve a form of dominance in a Society.

The first is through terrorism .. and not much needs to be said on that score. 9/11, the UK's '7/7' attack in London, the attack at the Atosha station in Spain .. and many more attacks besides, in various parts of the world. Through murder and mayhem, they hope that through acts of terrorism, the will to fight back can be sapped .. and, I'm sorry to say, this sometimes is successful.

The second, pivotal, means (aided and abetted by the Left) is through social incursion. Immigrants arrive, equipped with their cultural and religious identities, they take root in specific areas, form their own communities, all of which pushes out what was in the area they occupy beforehand. Demands are made, all of which serve the requirements of the invading Islamic culture and traditions. Integration is a non-starter ... always, those communities expect OTHERS to bend to THEM.

The third is through exploitation of indigenous freedoms. Demands are made to insist that concession after concession is made to them. Pressure groups form, and always citing either the race card, or the 'bigotry' card, they insist that anyone opposing them must be doing so through unacceptably antisocial means. This is particularly where the Left comes in ... Left-wingers insist that to speak out against them is evidence of racism or bigotry, and pressure groups invariably win out. Laws are passed, such as 'hatespeech' legislation, making strong criticism actionable in law. But more, the indigenous population becomes conditioned to revile anyone not conforming to these socially-conditioned imperatives.

Terrorism is a very 'blunt instrument' for Muslims to use ... though also a much-favoured one, as we've all seen.

Social incursion is less blunt, dealing in large measure with a form of physical invasion. Areas are occupied and, in essence, 'terraformed' to become Muslim in 'nature'.

Exploitative incursion is the most insidious. Through it, social conditioning is brought to bear, aided, as I've said, by the Left. People are pressured into believing that just THINKING of forms of opposition is wrong .. bigoted, racist, intolerant generally. So, belief-systems grow which always, but ALWAYS, lead to an ongoing process of evolving deference .. to Islam and to those practising it.

Folks, understand .. I am not theorising, just describing an ongoing reality in my own society !! Common throughout all of this is the sheer invasiveness of Islam. Islam, in my experience, has no interest in compromise that doesn't end up in achieving considerable advantage to ITS purposes, and more often than not compromise isn't even a factor AT ALL. No, Islam spreads and dominates .. and that's the point of Islam in a nutshell .. one of DOMINION.

Now .. how is that remotely compatible with the preservation of freedoms ? Answer .. IT ISN'T, not if those 'freedoms' are freedoms to defy Islam.

The conflict of Sharia with Western values is a case in point. In the UK, as a guiding legal principle, UK law should always prevail. If a Sharia directive can be arrived at and no UK law is broken, then 'fair enough' in our system ... BUT ... legally, no Sharia law 'court' can set itself up in defiance against UK law.

Sounds fine, doesn't it ... BUT for the process I've described already. Our laws are the product of values reflected by the population, HOWEVER, if those values change, then we can expect our laws to reflect that. Hatespeech legislation is a case in point. So .. if our values bend over time, if in the name of 'tolerance' we find we 'want' to accept other values and defer to them (led by the nose into this by Lefties ..) .. then the law, in the fullness of time, can undergo a form of erosion, where other laws supersede them.

As a consequence of ALL this, it's evident that we've been seen in the UK to be fair game for incursion. We get remarkably little incidence of terrorism here, I think because the 'sneakier' methods work here so very well !! So, goodbye churches, and hello, monolithic Mosque structures. And be careful what you say !!!!

But, America has an advantage we fail to have. You have a Constitution which can act as a barrier to certain incursions, it seems to me. So, the question for me is, just how bulletproof does this make America by comparison ?

I've heard that Obama is known for acting unconstitutionally when it suits him to .. surely a dangerous precedent. Should your society allow it ?

Does Obama cite reasonings to justify himself, reasonings which persuade others to adopt societal values which can 'catch on' and seem reasonable ? Folks, I'm somewhat out of my depth in trying to judge this either way, but what I'm saying is, IF this is happening, the dangers inherent in that process are grave.

So, surely, Americans must be prepared to fight if needs be, for what is theirs by right .. by birthright. Tyr's spirit is commendable, but perhaps more importantly, is INSIGHTFUL ... because you ARE in a war against those utterly determined to overthrow your values. They'll use whatever methodology works, be it the gun or bomb, acts of savagery, or of deployed propaganda crafted to fight your very thought processes and change them to THEIR preferences.

Therein, if they succeed, lies the road to the death of freedom.

DO YOU WANT THAT ? YES OR NO ? Because if 'no', then my suggestion is that you take the utmost notice of what Tyr had to tell you. And .. if that isn't enough for you, then cast your eyes and ears eastwards, to learn what's happening on my side of the Pond. To see what COULD happen .. if you allow it to.

Freaking --A.. -----
Outstanding presentation my friend! I've stated many times here ,want to see what they have in store for us just look to what they have done to Britain with the help of their leftist allies there. We see the same alliance here in its early stages. If we refuse to act firmly and with courageous resolve they will win here even if it takes 40, 60 or 80 years. They are big believers in a slow death by a thousand small cuts, they use that philosophy in other ways as well.--Tyr

[Drummond]

Freaking --A.. -----
Outstanding presentation my friend! I've stated many times here ,want to see what they have in store for us just look to what they have done to Britain with the help of their leftist allies there. We see the same alliance here in its early stages. If we refuse to act firmly and with courageous resolve they will win here even if it takes 40, 60 or 80 years. They are big believers in a slow death by a thousand small cuts, they use that philosophy in other ways as well.--Tyr

.. and many thanks, Tyr.

Your post puts it perfectly .. I've no need to comment further in my answer !

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

From my own experience in the UK, it seems perfectly obvious that Islamists have three distinct ways of operating in order to achieve a form of dominance in a Society.

The first is through terrorism .. and not much needs to be said on that score. 9/11, the UK's '7/7' attack in London, the attack at the Atosha station in Spain .. and many more attacks besides, in various parts of the world. Through murder and mayhem, they hope that through acts of terrorism, the will to fight back can be sapped .. and, I'm sorry to say, this sometimes is successful.

The second, pivotal, means (aided and abetted by the Left) is through social incursion. Immigrants arrive, equipped with their cultural and religious identities, they take root in specific areas, form their own communities, all of which pushes out what was in the area they occupy beforehand. Demands are made, all of which serve the requirements of the invading Islamic culture and traditions. Integration is a non-starter ... always, those communities expect OTHERS to bend to THEM.

The third is through exploitation of indigenous freedoms. Demands are made to insist that concession after concession is made to them. Pressure groups form, and always citing either the race card, or the 'bigotry' card, they insist that anyone opposing them must be doing so through unacceptably antisocial means. This is particularly where the Left comes in ... Left-wingers insist that to speak out against them is evidence of racism or bigotry, and pressure groups invariably win out. Laws are passed, such as 'hatespeech' legislation, making strong criticism actionable in law. But more, the indigenous population becomes conditioned to revile anyone not conforming to these socially-conditioned imperatives.

This was very insightful information and very helpful indeed in revealing what has been done to Britain. A tragic situation over there where they had to establish a defence league, English Defence League its called right, to try to protect their way of life from being destroyed by the islamists!? Question is, is it too little too late?-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

A most interesting thread ! Thanks to Tyr for it .. I've just now read it in greater detail.

From my own experience in the UK, it seems perfectly obvious that Islamists have three distinct ways of operating in order to achieve a form of dominance in a Society.

The first is through terrorism .. and not much needs to be said on that score. 9/11, the UK's '7/7' attack in London, the attack at the Atosha station in Spain .. and many more attacks besides, in various parts of the world. Through murder and mayhem, they hope that through acts of terrorism, the will to fight back can be sapped .. and, I'm sorry to say, this sometimes is successful.

The second, pivotal, means (aided and abetted by the Left) is through social incursion. Immigrants arrive, equipped with their cultural and religious identities, they take root in specific areas, form their own communities, all of which pushes out what was in the area they occupy beforehand. Demands are made, all of which serve the requirements of the invading Islamic culture and traditions. Integration is a non-starter ... always, those communities expect OTHERS to bend to THEM.

The third is through exploitation of indigenous freedoms. Demands are made to insist that concession after concession is made to them. Pressure groups form, and always citing either the race card, or the 'bigotry' card, they insist that anyone opposing them must be doing so through unacceptably antisocial means. This is particularly where the Left comes in ... Left-wingers insist that to speak out against them is evidence of racism or bigotry, and pressure groups invariably win out. Laws are passed, such as 'hatespeech' legislation, making strong criticism actionable in law. But more, the indigenous population becomes conditioned to revile anyone not conforming to these socially-conditioned imperatives.

Terrorism is a very 'blunt instrument' for Muslims to use ... though also a much-favoured one, as we've all seen.

Social incursion is less blunt, dealing in large measure with a form of physical invasion. Areas are occupied and, in essence, 'terraformed' to become Muslim in 'nature'.

Exploitative incursion is the most insidious. Through it, social conditioning is brought to bear, aided, as I've said, by the Left. People are pressured into believing that just THINKING of forms of opposition is wrong .. bigoted, racist, intolerant generally. So, belief-systems grow which always, but ALWAYS, lead to an ongoing process of evolving deference .. to Islam and to those practising it.

Folks, understand .. I am not theorising, just describing an ongoing reality in my own society !! Common throughout all of this is the sheer invasiveness of Islam. Islam, in my experience, has no interest in compromise that doesn't end up in achieving considerable advantage to ITS purposes, and more often than not compromise isn't even a factor AT ALL. No, Islam spreads and dominates .. and that's the point of Islam in a nutshell .. one of DOMINION.

Now .. how is that remotely compatible with the preservation of freedoms ? Answer .. IT ISN'T, not if those 'freedoms' are freedoms to defy Islam.

The conflict of Sharia with Western values is a case in point. In the UK, as a guiding legal principle, UK law should always prevail. If a Sharia directive can be arrived at and no UK law is broken, then 'fair enough' in our system ... BUT ... legally, no Sharia law 'court' can set itself up in defiance against UK law.

Sounds fine, doesn't it ... BUT for the process I've described already. Our laws are the product of values reflected by the population, HOWEVER, if those values change, then we can expect our laws to reflect that. Hatespeech legislation is a case in point. So .. if our values bend over time, if in the name of 'tolerance' we find we 'want' to accept other values and defer to them (led by the nose into this by Lefties ..) .. then the law, in the fullness of time, can undergo a form of erosion, where other laws supersede them.

As a consequence of ALL this, it's evident that we've been seen in the UK to be fair game for incursion. We get remarkably little incidence of terrorism here, I think because the 'sneakier' methods work here so very well !! So, goodbye churches, and hello, monolithic Mosque structures. And be careful what you say !!!!

But, America has an advantage we fail to have. You have a Constitution which can act as a barrier to certain incursions, it seems to me. So, the question for me is, just how bulletproof does this make America by comparison ?

I've heard that Obama is known for acting unconstitutionally when it suits him to .. surely a dangerous precedent. Should your society allow it ?

Does Obama cite reasonings to justify himself, reasonings which persuade others to adopt societal values which can 'catch on' and seem reasonable ? Folks, I'm somewhat out of my depth in trying to judge this either way, but what I'm saying is, IF this is happening, the dangers inherent in that process are grave.

So, surely, Americans must be prepared to fight if needs be, for what is theirs by right .. by birthright. Tyr's spirit is commendable, but perhaps more importantly, is INSIGHTFUL ... because you ARE in a war against those utterly determined to overthrow your values. They'll use whatever methodology works, be it the gun or bomb, acts of savagery, or of deployed propaganda crafted to fight your very thought processes and change them to THEIR preferences.

Therein, if they succeed, lies the road to the death of freedom.

DO YOU WANT THAT ? YES OR NO ? Because if 'no', then my suggestion is that you take the utmost notice of what Tyr had to tell you. And .. if that isn't enough for you, then cast your eyes and ears eastwards, to learn what's happening on my side of the Pond. To see what COULD happen .. if you allow it to.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for such an insightful post my friend. My reply to it is late but better late than never.
You gave great advice and your suggestion to look to what has happened and is happening to Britain should be taken by one and all. For it is a forerunner of much of what the political arm of Islam will attempt here with the distinction that they must navigate against and around our Constitution!

Sharia law is being promoted here as an alternative by Islamists and that simply can not be allowed. For it is a major undermining of our Constitution and would be a major division in our society. We have one Justice system, we need no second choice. Certainly not a second choiced that promotes a religion that has zero tolerance for freedom.

I take my stand because its also America's stand! I am just honest about what so many want to ignore or hide or even stupidly defend. Such critics are not friends to America for by not actively standing against Islam and its goal to destroy us, force us to submit to Islam , they are actually helping it and some even openly deliberately doing so. Such ignorance is no excuse but it is a reality . The attacks I've had launched against me here for daring to speak the truth about Islam point clearly to the fear and propaganda Islam has carried out for many decades here and its had its effects. Many reject my stand because they are simply afraid of Islam, yes cowards! In fact, often those are the most dedicated opponents to the TRUTH being presented about Islam's great threat! I may pity such cowards but I do not tolerate or forgive them. Forgiveness will be for God to do , not me.
I follow a hard line that a vow I made on 9/11 demands. --Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

A most interesting thread ! Thanks to Tyr for it .. I've just now read it in greater detail.

From my own experience in the UK, it seems perfectly obvious that Islamists have three distinct ways of operating in order to achieve a form of dominance in a Society.

The first is through terrorism .. and not much needs to be said on that score. 9/11, the UK's '7/7' attack in London, the attack at the Atosha station in Spain .. and many more attacks besides, in various parts of the world. Through murder and mayhem, they hope that through acts of terrorism, the will to fight back can be sapped .. and, I'm sorry to say, this sometimes is successful.

The second, pivotal, means (aided and abetted by the Left) is through social incursion. Immigrants arrive, equipped with their cultural and religious identities, they take root in specific areas, form their own communities, all of which pushes out what was in the area they occupy beforehand. Demands are made, all of which serve the requirements of the invading Islamic culture and traditions. Integration is a non-starter ... always, those communities expect OTHERS to bend to THEM.

The third is through exploitation of indigenous freedoms. Demands are made to insist that concession after concession is made to them. Pressure groups form, and always citing either the race card, or the 'bigotry' card, they insist that anyone opposing them must be doing so through unacceptably antisocial means. This is particularly where the Left comes in ... Left-wingers insist that to speak out against them is evidence of racism or bigotry, and pressure groups invariably win out. Laws are passed, such as 'hatespeech' legislation, making strong criticism actionable in law. But more, the indigenous population becomes conditioned to revile anyone not conforming to these socially-conditioned imperatives.

Terrorism is a very 'blunt instrument' for Muslims to use ... though also a much-favoured one, as we've all seen.

Social incursion is less blunt, dealing in large measure with a form of physical invasion. Areas are occupied and, in essence, 'terraformed' to become Muslim in 'nature'.

Exploitative incursion is the most insidious. Through it, social conditioning is brought to bear, aided, as I've said, by the Left. People are pressured into believing that just THINKING of forms of opposition is wrong .. bigoted, racist, intolerant generally. So, belief-systems grow which always, but ALWAYS, lead to an ongoing process of evolving deference .. to Islam and to those practising it.

Folks, understand .. I am not theorising, just describing an ongoing reality in my own society !! Common throughout all of this is the sheer invasiveness of Islam. Islam, in my experience, has no interest in compromise that doesn't end up in achieving considerable advantage to ITS purposes, and more often than not compromise isn't even a factor AT ALL. No, Islam spreads and dominates .. and that's the point of Islam in a nutshell .. one of DOMINION.

Now .. how is that remotely compatible with the preservation of freedoms ? Answer .. IT ISN'T, not if those 'freedoms' are freedoms to defy Islam.

The conflict of Sharia with Western values is a case in point. In the UK, as a guiding legal principle, UK law should always prevail. If a Sharia directive can be arrived at and no UK law is broken, then 'fair enough' in our system ... BUT ... legally, no Sharia law 'court' can set itself up in defiance against UK law.

Sounds fine, doesn't it ... BUT for the process I've described already. Our laws are the product of values reflected by the population, HOWEVER, if those values change, then we can expect our laws to reflect that. Hatespeech legislation is a case in point. So .. if our values bend over time, if in the name of 'tolerance' we find we 'want' to accept other values and defer to them (led by the nose into this by Lefties ..) .. then the law, in the fullness of time, can undergo a form of erosion, where other laws supersede them.

As a consequence of ALL this, it's evident that we've been seen in the UK to be fair game for incursion. We get remarkably little incidence of terrorism here, I think because the 'sneakier' methods work here so very well !! So, goodbye churches, and hello, monolithic Mosque structures. And be careful what you say !!!!

But, America has an advantage we fail to have. You have a Constitution which can act as a barrier to certain incursions, it seems to me. So, the question for me is, just how bulletproof does this make America by comparison ?

I've heard that Obama is known for acting unconstitutionally when it suits him to .. surely a dangerous precedent. Should your society allow it ?

Does Obama cite reasonings to justify himself, reasonings which persuade others to adopt societal values which can 'catch on' and seem reasonable ? Folks, I'm somewhat out of my depth in trying to judge this either way, but what I'm saying is, IF this is happening, the dangers inherent in that process are grave.

So, surely, Americans must be prepared to fight if needs be, for what is theirs by right .. by birthright. Tyr's spirit is commendable, but perhaps more importantly, is INSIGHTFUL ... because you ARE in a war against those utterly determined to overthrow your values. They'll use whatever methodology works, be it the gun or bomb, acts of savagery, or of deployed propaganda crafted to fight your very thought processes and change them to THEIR preferences.

Therein, if they succeed, lies the road to the death of freedom.

DO YOU WANT THAT ? YES OR NO ? Because if 'no', then my suggestion is that you take the utmost notice of what Tyr had to tell you. And .. if that isn't enough for you, then cast your eyes and ears eastwards, to learn what's happening on my side of the Pond. To see what COULD happen .. if you allow it to.

Now a bit over a year later we see so much more evidence in Obama's agenda to validate just how accurate and insightful the above quoted post is. A post made from one outside looking in. A conservative Brit that values truth ,honor and freedom the way WE Americans used to. Yes , my post started this thread ,my stand was taken and I gave an accurate account of how Islam is waging a war on this nation but Drummond's posts shows that of being outside and looking in. Now a year after his post we see so much more that validates just how insightful and accurate that post was! For now we see muslims here demanding blasphemy laws be passed. Trust me on this , they likely will be passed eventually but it'll only list Islam as the very special and protected entity. With that in mind I'll end this reply with a previous reply I made a while back and it's dead on the mark! ALL WOULD BE WISE TO HEED THESE WORDS IMHO. Certainly not because they come from me but rather because they are the truth of a very real and extreme danger..

My parents taught me to hate evil. The only thing they stated hating was the right thing to do on. Obama is evil, not a biased opinion it is a damn fact. The man votes for murdering babies born alive after an abortion was botched. The ffing scum vigorously supports abortion and murder of babies. Ask yourself why? Answer, as a muslim we are the enemy, less than human and should be aborted. Islam has always maintained that high birth rate is a weapon,= more soldiers for Allah. So naturally they encourage us to abort ours. All these people on here talking about knowing muslims and how nice they are , are really themselves being quite gullible and foolish. Every true muslim is taught that all non-muslims are less than animals. So all that nicey nicey to their face when speaking with them is pure baloney. They really are
just playing the game with we Westerners. When they get control all those fooled people will be kicked around like a dog and made to grovel like scum. People I respect have been fooled but never me. Once I know a truth it never leaves me! Islam is evil and is our avowed enemy. Islam seeks our total destruction. -Tyr

[aboutime]

Now a bit over a year later we see so much more evidence in Obama's agenda to validate just how accurate and insightful the above quoted post is. A post made from one outside looking in. A conservative Brit that values truth ,honor and freedom the way WE Americans used to. Yes , my post started this thread ,my stand was taken and I gave an accurate account of how Islam is waging a war on this nation but Drummond's posts shows that of being outside and looking in. Now a year after his post we see so much more that validates just how insightful and accurate that post was! For now we see muslims here demanding blasphemy laws be passed. Trust me on this , they likely will be passed eventually but it'll only list Islam as the very special and protected entity. With that in mind I'll end this reply with a previous reply I made a while back and it's dead on the mark! ALL WOULD BE WISE TO HEED THESE WORDS IMHO. Certainly not because they come from me but rather because they are the truth of a very real and extreme danger..

Tyr. Absolutely. Almost scary to compare all of that with what Obama, and the Democrat party have been working so diligently to bring about, here in this nation.
One step at a time, as we have all been seeing.
Obama's Destroy Switch is far more Reaching than many are willing to accept, or believe.

Remember this?......
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Tyr. Absolutely. Almost scary to compare all of that with what Obama, and the Democrat party have been working so diligently to bring about, here in this nation.
One step at a time, as we have all been seeing.
Obama's Destroy Switch is far more Reaching than many are willing to accept, or believe.

Remember this?......
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Quite likely there will be a day not too far in the future when they come for the true patriots of this nation. I'd rather die with my feet firmly planted and my rifle barrel hot than not. Then again I think some ways of dying are far better than others. They call me a dinosaur but I ain't dead yet and that worries the cowardly scum methinks. If it didn't the bastards would not be so hard driven to try to take our guns before they make that move! The war has already begun most Americans just don't know it yet. The first battle is about the patriots keeping their guns. --Tyr