A portrait of a Muslim womans life, written by a Muslim woman.

[jafar00]

I find it hilarious that in one post, Jahil can claim that unless it is specifically in the Qur'aan, it is not from Islam... then in another post, he can claim that things outside the Qur'aan (hadiths) are from Islam.

I wonder if he realizes how stupid he sounds.

When have I ever said that Islam is Qur'aan only?

[stevecanuck]

Hello, I've been invited here by voted4reagan because he knows I've studied the qur'an and islam in general.

To jafar00 I would ask why, if the hadiths are to be followed, did mohamed not say they should be written immediately. The first generations of muslims had to muddle along with only the qur'an to guide them, so if it was god's intention all along for muslims to use mohamed's life as a further guide, what took so long for them to create the hadiths, and why did the qur'an never prescribe it be done?

As an aside, neither the qur'an nor mohamed said that the qur'an should be written either. It was "revealed" to an illiterate man who taught it orally only. Neither god nor mohamed made any provision whatsoever to have it transcribed, so it makes sense that god intended for it to be taught orally. The only reason it took written form was because the oral recitations began to differ. It became clear that in order to preserve mohamed's teachings verbatim they would have to be committed to paper. Don't you think it imperfect of god not to realize that would happen? Bottom line is that a group of muslim clerics had to save god and mohamed from their own lack of foresight and planning. That alone should make you wonder how "all knowing" your god is.

As for verse 4:34, the phrase, "wa idrubu hunna" (and beat them) is plain and simple. No further translation is needed. Any attempt to suggest it means anything other than what it so clearly states is taqiyya (lying to infidels to further the cause of islam).

To suggest that the qur'an needs scholarly interpretation in order to be understood by the masses is contrary to it's stated purpose. Verse 14:4 says, "We have sent no Messenger except in the tongue of his own nation, so that he might make everything plain to them." Verse 19:97 confirms that by adding, "We have made it easy in your own tongue in order that you proclaim the glad tidings to the cautious and give warning to a stubborn nation." It does not say, "So have I sent a cryptogram discernible by only a learned few".

Arguing with a propagandist like Jafar00 can be a tar baby, so I'm not sure how much time I want to devote to his lies. We'll see.
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[Marcus Aurelius]

Hello, I've been invited here by voted4reagan because he knows I've studied the qur'an and islam in general.

To jafar00 I would ask why, if the hadiths are to be followed, did mohamed not say they should be written immediately. The first generations of muslims had to muddle along with only the qur'an to guide them, so if it was god's intention all along for muslims to use mohamed's life as a further guide, what took so long for them to create the hadiths, and why did the qur'an never prescribe it be done?

As an aside, neither the qur'an nor mohamed said that the qur'an should be written either. It was "revealed" to an illiterate man who taught it orally only. Neither god nor mohamed made any provision whatsoever to have it transcribed, so it makes sense that god intended for it to be taught orally. The only reason it took written form was because the oral recitations began to differ. It became clear that in order to preserve mohamed's teachings verbatim they would have to be committed to paper. Don't you think it imperfect of god not to realize that would happen? Bottom line is that a group of muslim clerics had to save god and mohamed from their own lack of foresight and planning. That alone should make you wonder how "all knowing" your god is.

As for verse 4:34, the phrase, "wa idrubu hunna" (and beat them) is plain and simple. No further translation is needed. Any attempt to suggest it means anything other than what it so clearly states is taqiyya (lying to infidels to further the cause of islam).

To suggest that the qur'an needs scholarly interpretation in order to be understood by the masses is contrary to it's stated purpose. Verse 14:4 says, "We have sent no Messenger except in the tongue of his own nation, so that he might make everything plain to them." Verse 19:97 confirms that by adding, "We have made it easy in your own tongue in order that you proclaim the glad tidings to the cautious and give warning to a stubborn nation." It does not say, "So have I sent a cryptogram discernible by only a learned few".

Arguing with a propagandist like Jafar00 can be a tar baby, so I'm not sure how much time I want to devote to his lies. We'll see.
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First, welcome.

Second, you'll find Jahil is full of self contradictions when you attempt to debate him. He'll tell you you are simply wrong, or misunderstanding, or using an anti-Islamic hate site for material, etc.

For example...

The only reason it took written form was because the oral recitations began to differ. It became clear that in order to preserve mohamed's teachings verbatim they would have to be committed to paper.

Jahil will vehemently claim that this is patently untrue. That the Qur'aan has been recited orally since the beginning, and it has always been 100% identical from the first recitation to the last, and that it is the written forms that differ and are incorrect.

I could go on, but read his posts. You'll get it pretty quick.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Here is another example of Jahil contradicting himself in posts...

Originally Posted by Voted4Reagan

as I said before. The wearing of the veil, hijab, niqab, Burqa are NOT prescribed in the Quran.

Do you agree with this Jafar?

Nope

Saying he does not agree means he disagrees, right? Jahil is saying the wearing of the hijab, niqab, Burqa ARE prescribed in the Qur'aan, right?

Which goes against this post...

There is nothing wrong with the kids dressing up to learn about other cultures. I do hope though that they were not told that the Burqa and Niqab are from Islam as they are cultural garb. Only the Hijab is written about in the Qur'aan...

Here, Jahil says theBurqa and niqab ARE NOT from Islam, that they are purely cultural.

If he can't keep his posts straight about something this simple, how can we expect honesty from him about any of his posts???

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Hello, I've been invited here by voted4reagan because he knows I've studied the qur'an and islam in general.

To jafar00 I would ask why, if the hadiths are to be followed, did mohamed not say they should be written immediately. The first generations of muslims had to muddle along with only the qur'an to guide them, so if it was god's intention all along for muslims to use mohamed's life as a further guide, what took so long for them to create the hadiths, and why did the qur'an never prescribe it be done?

As an aside, neither the qur'an nor mohamed said that the qur'an should be written either. It was "revealed" to an illiterate man who taught it orally only. Neither god nor mohamed made any provision whatsoever to have it transcribed, so it makes sense that god intended for it to be taught orally. The only reason it took written form was because the oral recitations began to differ. It became clear that in order to preserve mohamed's teachings verbatim they would have to be committed to paper. Don't you think it imperfect of god not to realize that would happen? Bottom line is that a group of muslim clerics had to save god and mohamed from their own lack of foresight and planning. That alone should make you wonder how "all knowing" your god is.

As for verse 4:34, the phrase, "wa idrubu hunna" (and beat them) is plain and simple. No further translation is needed. Any attempt to suggest it means anything other than what it so clearly states is taqiyya (lying to infidels to further the cause of islam).

To suggest that the qur'an needs scholarly interpretation in order to be understood by the masses is contrary to it's stated purpose. Verse 14:4 says, "We have sent no Messenger except in the tongue of his own nation, so that he might make everything plain to them." Verse 19:97 confirms that by adding, "We have made it easy in your own tongue in order that you proclaim the glad tidings to the cautious and give warning to a stubborn nation." It does not say, "So have I sent a cryptogram discernible by only a learned few".

Arguing with a propagandist like Jafar00 can be a tar baby, so I'm not sure how much time I want to devote to his lies. We'll see.
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A fine post.. Quite informative to say the least..
Steve , I have a prediction and that is Jafar will quickly put you on ignore. As too much truth rattles him and his nervous and cowardly Islamic nature then tells him to find a reason to ignore that opponent. This Jafar has done to me with a false justification cited about my rudeness.

With your knowledge of the qur'an he will fear debating you....--Tyr

[Voted4Reagan]

Waiting to see what Jafar has to say about what Steve posted.

Steve brings a lot to the table as his knowledge of the Quran far exceeds anyone I know.

Jafar.... your answer?

[jafar00]

Hello, I've been invited here by voted4reagan because he knows I've studied the qur'an and islam in general.

Welcome Steve.

To jafar00 I would ask why, if the hadiths are to be followed, did mohamed not say they should be written immediately. The first generations of muslims had to muddle along with only the qur'an to guide them, so if it was god's intention all along for muslims to use mohamed's life as a further guide, what took so long for them to create the hadiths, and why did the qur'an never prescribe it be done?

The Hadiths were recorded in the time of Mohamed (saw) both in written and orally recorded in the Arab tradition. They were not collected together into collections until later which is why some seem confused. Those that were recorded int collections were categorised according to varying degrees of reliability based on chains of transmission from Authentic to Fabrications. The prohibition on recording Hadiths was made early on in order to avoid confusing them with the Qur'aan revelations but it was allowed later on by learned companions such as Abdullah ibn Omar to ensure that they were not recorded by the illiterate thus avoiding errors. But you should know that already right?

Why do we follow Hadiths?

He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah (4:80)

God commanded us to do so.

As for verse 4:34, the phrase, "wa idrubu hunna" (and beat them) is plain and simple. No further translation is needed. Any attempt to suggest it means anything other than what it so clearly states is taqiyya (lying to infidels to further the cause of islam).

Please read what I posted http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthre...150#post624150

It contains a more thorough explanation of the interpretation of the verse that goes far beyond a mere translation of a word from Arabic to English and if you have studied Arabic as you said, you would know that depending on context, an Arabic word can be translated in up to 7 different ways into English.

And Taqiyya is a Shia concept.

To suggest that the qur'an needs scholarly interpretation in order to be understood by the masses is contrary to it's stated purpose. Verse 14:4 says, "We have sent no Messenger except in the tongue of his own nation, so that he might make everything plain to them." Verse 19:97 confirms that by adding, "We have made it easy in your own tongue in order that you proclaim the glad tidings to the cautious and give warning to a stubborn nation." It does not say, "So have I sent a cryptogram discernible by only a learned few".

The Qur'aan is easy to read if you know how to read Arabic. However, comprehending some of it does need a bit of study. Same with the Bible.

Arguing with a propagandist like Jafar00 can be a tar baby, so I'm not sure how much time I want to devote to his lies. We'll see.
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Are you insulting me before we even get to know each other?

[Marcus Aurelius]

Originally Posted by stevecanuck

To suggest that the qur'an needs scholarly interpretation in order to be understood by the masses is contrary to it's stated purpose. Verse 14:4 says, "We have sent no Messenger except in the tongue of his own nation, so that he might make everything plain to them." Verse 19:97 confirms that by adding, "We have made it easy in your own tongue in order that you proclaim the glad tidings to the cautious and give warning to a stubborn nation." It does not say, "So have I sent a cryptogram discernible by only a learned few".

The Qur'aan is easy to read if you know how to read Arabic. However, comprehending some of it does need a bit of study. Same with the Bible.
?

So, while the Qur'aan itself says it makes everything plain, and it is easy in your own tongue... Jahil says it needs a bit of study in order to understand it... which goes against what the Qur'aan itself says.

Jahil claims to know more about Islam than the Qur'aan. That's a pretty inflated opinion of yourself there, Jahil.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Originally Posted by stevecanuck

As for verse 4:34, the phrase, "wa idrubu hunna" (and beat them) is plain and simple. No further translation is needed. Any attempt to suggest it means anything other than what it so clearly states is taqiyya (lying to infidels to further the cause of islam).

Please read what I posted http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthre...150#post624150

It contains a more thorough explanation of the interpretation of the verse that goes far beyond a mere translation of a word from Arabic to English and if you have studied Arabic as you said, you would know that depending on context, an Arabic word can be translated in up to 7 different ways into English.

Still waiting for Jahil to show me in the Qur'aan where beating your wife is supposed to be with a toothbrush as he claimed.

[Voted4Reagan]

Still waiting for Jahil to show me in the Qur'aan where beating your wife is supposed to be with a toothbrush as he claimed.

I brought in Steve because he is Courteous and Respectful.. I have known him for 5 years (almost 6) and his knowledge is extensive.

we can all learn a lot from his knowledge of the Quran...

Pay attention boys and girls...

[stevecanuck]

Busy day. Probably nothing from me until tomorrow at the earliest.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I brought in Steve because he is Courteous and Respectful.. I have known him for 5 years (almost 6) and his knowledge is extensive.

we can all learn a lot from his knowledge of the Quran...

Pay attention boys and girls...

Except for Jahil, of course, who believes HE is the ultimate authority on all things Islam, even to the point of disagreeing with the Qur'aan itself in regards to how easy it is to understand and how complete it is.

[Voted4Reagan]

Busy day. Probably nothing from me until tomorrow at the earliest.

Understood my friend.... good to have you on board!

[stevecanuck]

Jafar, all you've done with your explanation of the writing of the hadiths is prove that neither god nor mohamed had a plan for preserving them. If qur'an and hadith were god's 1-2 punch to get the message of islam across to the (Arabic speaking) masses, you would think he would have made a scheme to ensure that both were adequately documented, something that never happened during mohamed's lifetime. Opps. Mere mortals had to save god from his own bad planning.

Speaking of bad planning, how about the fiasco of mohamed's succession? Again, if god had intended for mohamed's ministry to carry on after his death, you might think the first detail he and mohamed would have determined is the matter of succession. Because of this spectacular case of incompetence and mismanagement, islam split itself into sunni and shia. Brilliant, just flipping brilliant.

What makes more sense is that mohamed was just making the qur'an up as he went along to satisfy his own lust for power and women, and didn't really care what happened to it after he died. Doesn't that theory fit the sequence of events better than saying a "perfect" god was responsible for that goat rodeo?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Understood my friend.... good to have you on board!

^^^^^^^^^^^^ I will gladly second that... --

However , Jafar contests even the words in the Koran so he will show Steve no respect for the knowledge of the Koran that Steve has..