Professor and Math Problem

[Gunny]

Gunny if your dont read anything just get this.
And I'd Sugest you read up on how good constitutional police and FBI conduct business and add that to your training if you want to drop the BUT off your "strict" constitutionalism.



Constitution and U.S. law and treaty lays out what the US gov't... which includes the military last i checked... can and cannot do. the Civilain gov't it regulates the terms and places of "battle" and who gives the commands.

Gunny look, you and some of military guys act like you'd really prefer a military dictatorship.
But many of the rest of us prefer "civilian leadership"... under the constitution... no matter how flawed.
(BTW when the military can fix its sad rape and suicide problems tell me how perfect the military is)

you can call me names and pretend you know better, but i don't buy it Gunny.
I respect what the U.S. gov't under the constitution has trained you to do, "fight wars" but that's not police work and it's not intelligence work. But that's what's really needed on the PROTECTIVE side of terrorist work on the ground on U.S soil.
"BATTLE" mode is the LAST step, not the 1st one.

From what you've written it seems to me that your training and experience has given you 1 powerful tool. Full on attack mode. On and Off. But somehow you think any whiff of a threat deserve that ONE tool response. Sorry I don't buy it. There's no doubt in my mind that it's WRONG. We are not in a WAR ZONE at every airport and shop and town in the U.S.. There are many other tools to be used BEFORE you get to that one and in the U.S. the Constitution grants everyone here rights that DO NOT allow for WARZONE tactics to be typical order of the day.

I'm sure you disagree and you and Elesar can continue your chest beating, backslapping and dodging simply questions but sorry every problem is NOT a nail that your WAR training and tactics, experience and beliefs apply to.
And in general they do NOT apply on U.S. soil under the constitution and bill of rights... strictly or loosely.

I don't want to hear about I'm a constitutionalist BUT ...
I don't want a Prison Camp Guards, or Military Police Checkpoints and Military rules and Points of Battle order to "keep me safe". Not even if they work 100% of the time, which you know they will not, do not, and never have done.

Freedom and constitutional law and the bill of rights means a certain of amount of danger. I prefer to live within those rules. but YES i want everything done up to those rules for the public safety. And if the ball is dropped, Yes I will complain. Beyond that, well, like the 2nd amendment , sadly some people will misuse weapons and get away with murder. It doesn't mean I want a Military police state or gun confiscation, or mass deportations, or "Arabs" treated like Crap.

You apparently don't read up. So don't go telling me to do so. I know and understand the law.

Having said that, how can you expect me to think like you? I mean no offense when I call y'all civilians. I usually do it to make a point. What YOU don't get is it is about tolerance and understanding of others. How is it that I, the Marine Corps Gunnery Sergeant am more tolerant and understanding than you?

When you watch people die, you kind of figure out what is and isn't important. You fuss over silly sh*t to me. We actually think alike on quite a few subjects. At the same time, don't go for a job in journalism. You're abysmal in writing and don't join the military. You can't stay on track for sh*t.

SO how about we keep this thread about the topic and you can get in my a$$ in the lounge or the cage; whichever you prefer.

My comments were merely to point out we don't think alike. Not derail from the original topic. There's a difference in the way we view things.

[aboutime]

You apparently don't read up. So don't go telling me to do so. I know and understand the law.

Having said that, how can you expect me to think like you? I mean no offense when I call y'all civilians. I usually do it to make a point. What YOU don't get is it is about tolerance and understanding of others. How is it that I, the Marine Corps Gunnery Sergeant am more tolerant and understanding than you?

When you watch people die, you kind of figure out what is and isn't important. You fuss over silly sh*t to me. We actually think alike on quite a few subjects. At the same time, don't go for a job in journalism. You're abysmal in writing and don't join the military. You can't stay on track for sh*t.

SO how about we keep this thread about the topic and you can get in my a$$ in the lounge or the cage; whichever you prefer.

My comments were merely to point out we don't think alike. Not derail from the original topic. There's a difference in the way we view things.

Gunny. Sounds like the rev is mistaking PROTECTING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE with the desired Dictatorship aspects based on his hatred, and disgust for MILITARY.

Our president has all but destroyed (CONSTITUTIONALLY) his sworn duties to PROTECT this nation, and has ignored his PRIMARY duty as president by placing this nation in greater threat from enemies....I believe...rev would APOLOGIZE to like Obama.

[Elessar]

Gunny look, you and some of military guys act like you'd really prefer a military dictatorship.
But many of the rest of us prefer "civilian leadership"... under the constitution... no matter how flawed.
(BTW when the military can fix its sad rape and suicide problems tell me how perfect the military is)

Holy Cow! Where did you ever get that idea from?
You do not read....just gloss over and find some retort likely found on the 'net.

If You are so concerned with rape and suicide, mend your own whining civilian
fences first. It is not a military problem - it is a social problem and that line was
a deflective low-blow. I thought better of you. Perhaps I was wrong.

[Gunny]

Gunny. Sounds like the rev is mistaking PROTECTING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE with the desired Dictatorship aspects based on his hatred, and disgust for MILITARY.

Our president has all but destroyed (CONSTITUTIONALLY) his sworn duties to PROTECT this nation, and has ignored his PRIMARY duty as president by placing this nation in greater threat from enemies....I believe...rev would APOLOGIZE to like Obama.

He's an anarchist. Ideally, self-policing is great. Except nobody wants it. He can't divorce his idealism from reality. Jimmy Carter had that problem.

[indago]

I don't think you two do disagree. I just think that neither of you are addressing the specifics of the thread for some reason. This thread has exceedingly little to do with your life or what you two did while serving...

I can agree with that. The plane wasn't a military plane; the pilot was not an officer in the military; the stewardesses were not WACS; Guido Menzio was not an officer in the military, he is an "Ivy League professor"; nor was "the woman sitting next to him" military. And yet we have has-beens here refighting the last war, Shukn'n'Jivin' and derailing the thread.




.

[indago]

There was certainly an overreaction by the plane personnel. The woman could have been called to another part of the plane to question her concerning her complaint, and then approach the professor about what he was writing and have him explain it all. He could have calmed any fears initiated by the woman passenger.

[Elessar]

I can agree with that. The plane wasn't a military plane; the pilot was not an officer in the military; the stewardesses were not WACS; Guido Menzio was not an officer in the military, he is an "Ivy League professor"; nor was "the woman sitting next to him" military. And yet we have has-beens here refighting the last war, Shukn'n'Jivin' and derailing the thread.
.

Has-beens?

I oppose a Never-Been who has not wisdom enough to fill a thimble.

Have you not read a single thing that was offered? Have you not googled the sources mentioned?
After all, you are the Cut 'n Paste King of DP. You did NOT read through the whole thread, just
picking and choosing what satisfies your narrow minded hatred of L.E. and Military.

Nowhere in any of those messages was presumed what you posted here. Nowhere! I've not
seen such a weak-assed hardhead in ages. You must really impress yourself...but few others.

[indago]

Has-beens?

I oppose a Never-Been who has not wisdom enough to fill a thimble.

Have you not read a single thing that was offered? Have you not googled the sources mentioned?
After all, you are the Cut 'n Paste King of DP. You did NOT read through the whole thread, just
picking and choosing what satisfies your narrow minded hatred of L.E. and Military.

Nowhere in any of those messages was presumed what you posted here. Nowhere! I've not
seen such a weak-assed hardhead in ages. You must really impress yourself...but few others.

Ooooo! Did I hit a nerve there, or what...

[Elessar]

Ooooo! Did I hit a nerve there, or what...

Hardy...just pointing out the obvious.

[revelarts]

Holy Cow! Where did you ever get that idea from?
You do not read....just gloss over and find some retort likely found on the 'net.

If You are so concerned with rape and suicide, mend your own whining civilian
fences first. It is not a military problem - it is a social problem and that line was
a deflective low-blow. I thought better of you. Perhaps I was wrong.

ah well… maybe so


But look Elessar, i complement the military where it works but i do not idolize it. It has strengths and weaknesses. and Yes rape is a human problem and its not handled well in civilian life very well. But it seems that for decades now the military has had a even a more difficult time dealing with it honestly and effectively. Maybe it was a "low blow" but I have to admit i’d just gotten a bit tired of the continued droning on an on in this thread with stuff like—
---we in the military know better than you "fat" "lazy" "borg" "civilians" "whining protesters" and if you'd would "listen" and "do what we say" since we've 'Been There, Done That!' instead of "interjecting yourself in arguments you don't belong in" because you "obviously, haven't been in a split second decision matrix" then everything would be great!…— commentary


Look I get that you guys LOVE the military and think that the people and training give you the clear edge in violent situations. (if not make you come across as if you think you're overall and in general better than others)
I'm just not ..maybe this a low blow as well.... I'm not a military cult member. In general my psyche just tends to see good, bad and the ugly in everything. (And for the record again, I've had uncles, cousins, in the military and worked with full duty, reserved and retired military people all my life. Air force, navy, army and marines. One of my closest friends is retired military. Many days as a kid i spent at the VA hospital since my mom was a nurse there and we needed to wait for her on VA grounds with Viet Nam, Korean and WWII vets and families. (those WW2 guys had the best stories BTW) So i'm not unsympathetic or completely unfamiliar with military issues and personnel.)

And I don't think anyone here can point to ONE place where I've been dismissive of military personnel’s opinions calling them "borg" or brainwashed or possibly PTSS addled or militarily narrow-minded, simply because they've happen NOT to be civilians. I've tried addressed your points with law, logic and facts .

you've been pretty clear in your replies but you've frankly DODGED several of my questions and slapped Gunny on the back with thanks at his personal digs and contentless --we're military i just know better--- --i done looked um in the eye-- comments.

An you've ignored the fact that others in the military, the FBI, Police and Yes even people who are civilians might have some valid options. Rather than address those ideas you and Gunny keep trying to play the —I’m in the military and your not— card.

you've made several points about "split second" reactions. OK fine I've acknowledge the split second life and death opinions are best handled by those with a certain training. In my mind that's a given. But the thread is about assessing POTENTIAL threats that may be developing SLOWLY and with few clues. And having a "MATRIX" to determine who might be a threat and what are the best LEGAL PREVENTATIVE STEPS to take to deal with them.

Some seem to think every suspected "Arab" should be shot or deported at any hint of trouble.

Early on in the thread you said
“Why possibly compromise the welfare of everyone in a flight when
someone fits the image of what is known to be a terrorist that will
blow the damn plane up and kill everyone?”

I've been trying to get a CLEAR answer on IF/or what your looking for BEYOND the fact someones an “ARAB”.
and what STEPS you'd take ...assuming it's not a SPLIT second scenario. Do you stay within the constitution? Am i being “obtuse” in referring to it in "real world" police work and investigations. At this point that's the impression you've given me. that ONLY military training should be used that Constitution is NOT a factor. In my mind if MILITARY training and tactics are the ONLY factor then it sounds like you want MILITARY RULE. NOT constitutional rule or horrible “civilian” rule.

is that too cut and dry?
I like the 2nd amendment in the "real world". I suspect Im not being "idealistic" about that.
But when i mention the constitution in regard to terrorism somehow some think i've become "impractical" and idealistic". And the constitution is poo pooed, ignored and replaced with military tactics, rules, orders and "chain of command". By way of clear definition that IS Military Rule or Dictatorship in my mind. No matter what euphemism some might apply. Seems to me people should be honest about what they are promoting if it’s not REAL WORLD constitutionalism and the bill of rights then it’s something else. Earlier you mentioned that certain things were “privileges” and not “rights” well that's debatable but if you and others assume we MUST IGNORE constitutional rights by default as “impractical” then what legal grounds are you using for your actions? Military rules of engagement... which is De facto Military law dictatorship. It may be starkly put but realistically that’s what it is.
What exactly am i missing.

[Gunny]

I can agree with that. The plane wasn't a military plane; the pilot was not an officer in the military; the stewardesses were not WACS; Guido Menzio was not an officer in the military, he is an "Ivy League professor"; nor was "the woman sitting next to him" military. And yet we have has-beens here refighting the last war, Shukn'n'Jivin' and derailing the thread.




.

You and FJ are kind of missing the point. My comment was directed more to the training and lack thereof by people in authority. They don't have to be military (even though TSA tries to act like it). I learned to recognize Arabic when I was 10. I can recognize Greek and Russian as well. Learned that in school in Greece when I was 12. I can speak Spanish and can probably read it better than most Mexicans. Leaned that in school too. The military had nothing to do with it. Except for the different places I've lived because my father was military.

The other point is elessar and I are trained first responders. We have to assess a situation a split second. There's no room for debate. We act. That's what we do. It's not bragging. There's a heartache side to every bit of it.

I haven't disagreed that some hysterical busybody got some guy tossed off the plane. But when you assume a position of authority, you need to be trained to handle the situation. From the incidences I've seen of Arabs on planes, all you have to do is yell "fire" and you tossed and held by people with IQ level of monkeys. I don't have the problem y'all do with security because ... wait for it ... I'm military. I was well-trained to do my job. These clowns need to have mandatory training to assess a situation without overreacting.

At the same time, you are responsible for your actions. I wouldn't be writing in Arabic on a plane.

Was it me? I'd have put the biddy off the plane and given the dude complimentary drinks for the flight for being inconvenienced by some paranoid, hysterical goofball.

[Elessar]

Decision making study I attended (if I could find the paperwork I saved I would offer a reference,
but I am still unpacking some things).

Visualize an equilateral triangle sitting on it's apex, then with a straight line up the center.
One leg to one side will indicate an immediate reaction and decision made; the other leg
will indicate a more contemplative decision made.

Of the Command Center Staff at CG Sector Los Angeles/Long Beach all 18 members, which
included watch-standers and supervisors, participated in this exercise. I was the Senior
watch-stander at the time. Some Supervisors were Junior Officers.

Only 3 of us scored along that center-line; Me as a BM1(E-6), Our Command Center Chief,
a QMCS (E-8), and another BM2(E-5) watch-stander. The rest tended to drift one way or the other.

The optimal is to be along that center-line, being able to evaluate input, data, and stimulus and
respond accordingly to one leg or the other. It is all human nature and only training will draw
people more that that center-line.

If I find that reference, I will ask a Mod or Admin to attach it on this post. It is quite interesting.

[Gunny]

Decision making study I attended (if I could find the paperwork I saved I would offer a reference,
but I am still unpacking some things).

Visualize an equilateral triangle sitting on it's apex, then with a straight line up the center.
One leg to one side will indicate an immediate reaction and decision made; the other leg
will indicate a more contemplative decision made.

Of the Command Center Staff at CG Sector Los Angeles/Long Beach all 18 members, which
included watch-standers and supervisors, participated in this exercise. I was the Senior
watch-stander at the time. Some Supervisors were Junior Officers.

Only 3 of us scored along that center-line; Me as a BM1(E-6), Our Command Center Chief,
a QMCS (E-8), and another BM2(E-5) watch-stander. The rest tended to drift one way or the other.

The optimal is to be along that center-line, being able to evaluate input, data, and stimulus and
respond accordingly to one leg or the other. It is all human nature and only training will draw
people more that that center-line.

If I find that reference, I will ask a Mod or Admin to attach it on this post. It is quite interesting.

Sounds like y'all Coasties complicated some simple sh*t to me. You really don't think they gave a bunch of jarheads that test do you? You might as well put me on Dancing with the Stars.

You assess a situation make a decision and go with it. Got a saying in the Corps .... every well-made, took two weeks to do it plan goes to shit the second that first round comes down range. I've ended up nowhere I was even close to supposed to be more than once.

[Elessar]

[QUOTE=Gunny;817646]Sounds like y'all Coasties complicated some simple sh*t to me. You really don't think they gave a bunch of jarheads that test do you? You might as well put me on Dancing with the Stars.

You assess a situation make a decision and go with it. Got a saying in the Corps .... every well-made, took two weeks to do it plan goes to shit the second that first round comes down range. I've ended up nowhere I was even close to supposed to be more than once.[/QUOTE

It was an interesting Seminar that opened a lot of eyes. The difference, I can tell
is the Corps, and Air Force (responsible for inland SAR) and the Navy all speak the
same language - Just Different Dialects!

[Gunny]

[QUOTE=Elessar;817651]

Sounds like y'all Coasties complicated some simple sh*t to me. You really don't think they gave a bunch of jarheads that test do you? You might as well put me on Dancing with the Stars.

You assess a situation make a decision and go with it. Got a saying in the Corps .... every well-made, took two weeks to do it plan goes to shit the second that first round comes down range. I've ended up nowhere I was even close to supposed to be more than once.[/QUOTE

It was an interesting Seminar that opened a lot of eyes. The difference, I can tell
is the Corps, and Air Force (responsible for inland SAR) and the Navy all speak the
same language - Just Different Dialects!

That is actually not quite correct. The Air Force hates us. We don't call them. Last thing I need is some 5000 feet sky jock providing CAS. They're as like to kill us as the enemy. I call Navy and Marine birds in. They're trained. And I rather be rescued by a squid than have one of those arrogant Air Force pansies get my ass.

The irony: I grew up in the Air Force. I was so offended I went from okay USAF dependent to neanderthal Marine it wasn't even funny.